Leasing Tower Space for Repeater

Larry · Post by **Larry** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:42 pm

I'm thinking of making the big step in moving my repeater to a commercial site and was curious about what the average cost for a lease at an antenna tower would be. I've tried everything to get better coverage with my radio system and found the problem was the antenna height. The current antenna has a haat of 10 ft... I cannot put a tower at my current property which leave only renting space at a commercial site.

Does anyone have any idea what I should expect to pay for this option?

Thanks

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:10 am

Could be anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 per month and this usually includes foot print in the shelter for a cabinet and electrical power.

Some of the tower managers still use the height and numbers of antennas to base the lease costs too. Best just to call around.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:28 am

Damn I must be lucky... last spot I got was $400/mo for a 5'x5' footprint, and a spot for 1 antenna on the tower. I also had access to a shared receive antenna.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:53 am

And then figure about $8,000+ for the tower climbers to install everything. Plus the cost of the antenna (several hundred at least) and coax cable (7/8" is a few dollars a foot).

Will · Post by **Will** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:43 pm

Another option, find a big hill and check with home owners about placing your NON Profit repeater in their garage.

Arround here (Los Angeles aera), as Chatsworth Robert stated, you pay anywhere from $200 to over 500 dollars a month per repeater. And some sites will not let you do any of your own work on the tower or even in the shelter.

kcbooboo · Post by **kcbooboo** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:08 pm

Just to add my $0.02 worth, the site where I have my UHF repeater gets $400/mo for tower space rental. That probably includes some space in the building, 100 ft away from the tower. Only approved tower men can climb the tower and/or work on it, and they need $6M insurance or more.

I bought a SuperStationmaster antenna for 440-450 MHz that cost me $900 plus $100 to ship it (it's over 22 ft long). I also bought an anti-sway bar for another $350 to keep the antenna from moving around too much. Besides, all the other vertical antennas on the tower had one, and I didn't want the ham installation to be the weak link. I used 500 feet of 7/8 coax that has 0.8dB loss per 100 feet at 450 MHz and that was just about $3 per foot. Grounding kits, coax installation/hangers, and connectors for each end added another couple hundred dollars. All of this adds up to a lot more than the actual repeater equipment, and was a significant drain on my credit card (and my checkbook when the bill came in).

Bob M.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:13 am

Keep in mind that many (if not most) commercial repeater site owners/operators require that your repeater have a high performance isolator, as well as tripple circulators (which gets a bit pricey).

Larry

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:33 am

Keep in mind that many (if not most) commercial repeater site owners/operators require that your repeater have a high performance isolator, as well as tripple circulators (which gets a bit pricey).

They require both an isolator AND a circulator. Whats the difference?

Mike in CT · Post by **Mike in CT** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:05 pm

I own commercial towers... and am NOT a lawyer, these is just observations from my experience:

some other things tenants may want to consider:

the tower owner may probably require you carry insurance; with his company as a co-insured party. Just in case your antenna falls on another, or your worker breaks something, etc etc etc.

The lease agreement may be as short as one page, or as long as 40 pages... keeps the lawyers very happy.

the owner may require you to pay to move your antenna if he has a reason (or no reason?) to move it.

there are always interference clauses in the agreements... can you live with the particular clause?

rent usually has an annual increase clause, usually 3-5% per year.

the owner will usually require an insured professional rigger to work on the tower, or may even have his own rigger. There is an expense here...

Is the tower is registered with the FCC and FAA?

Will you be given unlimited access? (this usually isnt a problem)

Will you and "your agents, employees or interested parties" have access to the site with you? this means: If you decide to have a bunch of hams at the site to help you out, will there be a problem?

"hold harmless clauses" in the agreement. These protect you from liability if something (not your fault) should go seriously wrong.

and what happens if YOUR equipment is damaged, due to negligence or acident?

If the tower needs maintenance, inspection, painting, beefing up, repair, etc, will the owner pay for it all, or will the cost be shared by the tenants? (This also includes roadwork to the site, grounds works, etc.)

If you are in a snowy part of the country... is the plowing cost shared by tenants or not?

Will the owner require an intermod study?
loading study?
power compliance survey?
($$$)

If you decide to someday leave the site, will you have the option of simply abandoning the antenna and feedline? usually the expense of removing them is far greater than just leaving them there.

some things to consider when renting space on a commercial tower.

good luck and of course... 73!

Mike in CT
KM1R

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:36 pm

Those are some very good points Mike, especially the last one. A guy I worked with had to remove the line when he left and the labor cost more than when it was installed. Several sites around here will let you leave the coax (depending) as a selling point to the next user. I should add though that the towers I know of that let you leave the coax are locally owned, not owned by ATC or Penn or any other major company.

raymond345 · Post by **raymond345** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:29 am

Some great stories here.

Well we live in Northern CANADA.

The cost for a radio system monthly
rental commercial (Not Celluar or Broadcast Stations)
is from $150.00 to $275.00

Our average land elevation is 1000feet
to 1400 feet above sea level.

Most towers here are 250feet to 400feet.
Rigger costs per rigger is $55.00/Hr.

Our last Ham repeater antenna sinclair
210c4 mounted 270 feet with 1- 5/8 co-ax
cost $300.00 for install.
Zero monthly bills.

You need to know how to deal with
business people.Not all business
companies are out to make a million
dollars per year.

We also put many FREE hours of work
back into the community.

It is people helping People.

Some cell companies pay up to $3000.00
per month rent.They are making money also.

kcbooboo · Post by **kcbooboo** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:07 pm

I also do odd jobs for the chief engineer of the station that owns the tower, like chasing down interference and taking spectrum analyses of their transmitted signals. The "people helping people" aspect is definitely a better way to have tower space than paying for it.

Bob M.

Mike in CT · Post by **Mike in CT** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 3:33 pm

Larry:

if you can work out some sort of non monetary deal for your repeater that usually works well for BOTH parties.

It could be anything, such as technical stuff, like Bob M. does, or like other guys...something as mundane as simple housekeeping at the site. you know, mow the grass, clean inside the building, shovel snow off the walks, etc etc. The ham club on my tower (of which I am a member !!) pays no rent, but the handshake agreement is, that if we ever need a hand doing something on the ground, I can ask for some help... and it has never failed... and I would never abuse it!

Many tower owners (including me) would rather not get bogged down with a contract / rental $$ for ham radio... ham radio gives back to the community much more than it takes. Most tower site owners (not the BIG companies) are nice guys, who probably are hams, and/or are just "into" radio... they usually aren't into making millions of dollars on rentals.

Besides, we can get the big bucks from the wireless carriers!!!!!!

but if you MUST do a written agreement, look at it closely!

good luck!

Mike in CT
KM1R

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:58 pm

Except for the scant few tower owners who are still mom & pop operations, anymore these owners typically involve large corporations. I dare say they would have no interest in trading lawn mowing services (and the like) for tower rent space. In fact, their attorneys would have a hisseyfit at the thought of the liability involved with such a "hand shake" deal (e.g., when the Ham cuts his foot off mowing the lawn, etc.). The recent huge increases in tower space contract prices is one of the reasons so many 2 meter and 440 Ham repeaters have gone silent in the last 3 to 5 years. They are now going off the air for good at a faster rate than WWII vets are dying off. Even Southern CA now has 440 MHz pairs lying vacant, something unheard of since about 1973. How long will it be before Uncle Sam takes back all the Ham frequencies above 30 MHz? Heck, given the multibillion $ value of this unused Ham spectrum, the Gov't could finance the Iraq War for a few days or so.

Larry

Post by **/\/\y 2 cents** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:58 pm

Larry wrote: "The Gov't could take the ham freq's back and make enough money to pay for the iraq war for awhile"

Shh....dont tell michael powell that, he may just come up with a plan to bail his father and friends out of this whole stupid iraq war.

For chirst sake will someone teach me how to use the quote feature, im getting tired of typing what the last guy said to make my point.

Steve

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:01 pm

/\/\y 2 cents wrote:For chirst sake will someone teach me how to use the quote feature, im getting tired of typing what the last guy said to make my point.

Steve

You just click on quote... on the far right top of a post.

Microwave Mike · Post by **Microwave Mike** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:57 am

An isolator has a Load attached to one of the ports, A circulator does not.
Other than that difference they are the same device. Another note, An isolator shouldhave a low-pass filter attached to it's output.

mm

kcbooboo · Post by **kcbooboo** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:10 am

The so-called circulator in the MSF5000 PA has a small dummy load built into it. I'm not so sure that the presence or lack of a load is what separates "the men" from "the boys". Now it may very well be that the MSF5000 really has an isolator in it, but all their documentation calls it a circulator.

That's my $0.02 worth !

Bob M.

Mike in CT · Post by **Mike in CT** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:59 pm

Astromodat;

Good points! especially the liability issues with the big companies.

up here in CT, (luckily) there are still small private companies that own sites, though it is starting to become an endangered commodity.

It's getting really difficult to compete with the unlimited $$$ of the big hitters (and we all know who they are) and their lawyers when it comes down to a standoff.

There is one major carrier who is practically demanding that the town let them put a tower in within two miles or so of my "flagship" site. They were offered plenty of space on my site, but they want their own tower (for obvious reasons), and hinted that they could "outlawyer" us forever
if we fought them.

I could have sold out my tower business long ago, but quite frankly, it still is a bit fun... and I am lucky... all my tenants (with one exception) are great, pay on time and in full, and are an absolute pleasure to deal with.

Having a ham club on a site preserves the real reason most of us got into the business... we actually like radio!!!

you made some great points... 73 !

Mike in CT
KM1R

d119 · Post by **d119** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:49 am

Read post below. Damn browsers.

d119 · Post by **d119** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:51 am

I was going to install a linked amateur radio repeater in Southern California, tied back to a hub in Los Anageles, and had a lease typed up and approved from a major site company. They offered me space in the building for $50/month (incredibly cheap) for one antenna, and the option to mount my control & link antennas to the roof of the building at no extra cost (amazing).

It never happened.

Why? Because while all these discussions of site rents and towers and whatnot are great, nobody really pointed out that you're gonna have to have something on the order of $3 MILLION in liability insurance, naming the company renting you the space as additional insured. I am not a homeowner, this was not a commercial installation, and I was UNABLE to locate ANYONE who would write me a policy for it.

Half the problem was that nobody (being insurance companies) really understood what in the hell I was talking about, and those that did were not interested in insuring any commercial or noncommercial radio installations.

Luckily I moved out of the area and the need for a repeater in the area was moot. Now everything's mounted here at my home, which sits on a nice high hill, and I don't have to pay anything for it

The point: There's more to it than site rents, etc. As someone pointed out above, these tower companies will require you to have AT LEAST $6 MILLION in insurance if you're doing your OWN antenna work, otherwise the standard (that I found) is $3 million for your CONTRACTOR to do the antenna work, plus the $3 million you must continually carry to cover yourself having your equipment in the building and on the tower.

It really is a shame, because things didn't used to be this way.

kcbooboo · Post by **kcbooboo** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:46 am

The FM tower that my repeater antenna is on also wanted $6M liability insurance that I was unable to get. Mainly it's because if my antenna falls off the tower and breaks something else on the way down, the other customers will want compensation for being off the air and/or having to replace their equipment due to damage by mine. I also was unable to get any insurance. The "deal" I have, and it's unwritten, is that the FM station "owns" the antenna and it's covered by their blanket insurance, mainly because they had their contracted tower people do all the installs. If lightning hits the antenna or tower, the damage to my equipment is my own problem. I never got any insurance on that, but there are a couple of companies that specialize in ham radio equipment coverage. I just never pursued it and bought spare equipment instead.

It might be cheaper in the long run to hire an insured tower contractor to put the antenna up for you. Around here I'm told they can get $2000 per day, which is almost prohibitive for a ham installation. I was quite happy to have my antenna and coax installed at no cost to me.

Bob M.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:32 am

A commercial antenna install for $2,000, even at the bottom of the tower, would be a steal---almost unheard of. Plan on $5,000+ as a budgetary figure for a typical antenna install on a tower.

Now you see why Ham radio is dying faster than WWII vets! In most large major cities across the US, there are fewer and fewer Ham 2M and 440 MHz repeaters every day. Count the ticks on the clock before the FCC takes the spectrum above 30 MHz from Hams. I don't blame them, as it's not being utilized.

Larry

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:19 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:Count the ticks on the clock before the FCC takes the spectrum above 30 MHz from Hams.

But where will all of the "No-Code" Techs go?

d119 · Post by **d119** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:32 pm

RESCUE161 wrote:
ASTROMODAT wrote:Count the ticks on the clock before the FCC takes the spectrum above 30 MHz from Hams.
But where will all of the "No-Code" Techs go?

Ignore him. He's hates amateur radio, the people who are licensed to use it, etc. He wastes no time sticking his opinion of amateurs in whereever he can.

Larry (astromodat), if they were gonna do it they'd have done it already. DONT FORGET THAT THE SPECTRUM THAT HAMS OCCUPY ON VHF & UHF IS ON A SECONDARY BASIS. The goverment is the primary user of the spectrum that hams occupy above 30MHz.

If you care to PM me sometime and tell me just why it is you hate (and I specifically use the word hate) Amateur Radio, I'd be interested in hearing it. You certainly do voice negativity towards amateur radio at every opportunity. Drop me a *PM* sometime and tell me why, if you want.

Yeesh. Now, let us RETURN TO THE TOPIC AT HAND... I'll keep my opinion of you, Larry, to myself. Because I can.

Leasing Tower Space for Repeater

Leasing Tower Space for Repeater

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Well in the North - CANADA

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