Looking for input... specing new base radio

[Bob]

Now that a new year is upon us, it looks like I'll be inheriting comms for my ambulance squad. This has been a LONG neglected item, and I'm looking to make some improvements.

I've started thinking about some tweaks we need made to our infrastructure. Alright, we're essentially in the beginning phases of specing a new base radio.

Current Config is as follows:
=Rackmount CommandStar, 1KPM, 2ACMs (one for paging and one set up for PA but unused), 3 Dual CCMs (no display), 6 monitor speakers, 2 blanks, and the select and unselect audio.

=Backend consists of a GE MASTR series radio. I'm not sure which radio (not likely a III) and whether it's tone or DC (likely DC). Audio for the monitor speakers is driven by 4 scanners and 2 plectrons. (I haven't been able to get into the cage yet)

=Station alerting is done via a Fed Sig informer (VHF), on the desk next to the console. Audio is piped throughout the building from the Informer. We also have 2 Informers (VHF and LB) for the three fire departments we work with.


Here's what we need:
=TX/RX on 4 VHF channels. At least one (for now) will be 12.5 and the rest are 25.

=Independent RX on 7 additional channels - mix of UHF, VHF, LB.

=Audible and visual alert at the console (and audio piped through the bldg) for Station activation and for the FD activation. We're also talking about activating overhead lights, etc.
We also need the ability to mute all channels but have 3 channels unmute upon tone activation. (channels don't currently unmute upon activation - BIG PET PEEVE) 2 of the channels are RX only.


And here are the limitations (at this time; may be subject to more later):
=Quantar ain't gonna happen. We don't have that kind of cash laying around, and TPTB don't like funding stuff like this on credit.

=We do, however need (at least) a 100 watt radio.

=Existing console must be resused. Reprogramming and simple upgrades OK.


So now for the questions:
=What will it take to convert this console from DC to tone (or vice versa) if we have to? Or is it possible at all?

=Am I sane in suggesting we drop the 4 scanners and 3 FS Informers and go to dedicated CDM750s? My feeling is that they'll play better with the console.

=What's out there that will play (relatively) nicely with our config?


I know I'll get a few 'go talk to your local MSS' responses. Most of the local shops (as several on this board can attest to) don't know there arses from holes in the ground. I'm trying to do some homework and get some sanity checks out of the way before we get too far into this project. I also want to make sure there isn't anything blaring that we have overlooked thus far.

[nmfire10]

Chances are a CDM750 will have better performance than a scanner. You also are not going to get external allarm, COR, and PL/DPL out of a cheapo scanner. You'd need one of the expensive models just for the PL/DPL and at that point, you are not saving any money.

You also need to concider what kind of antennae you are going to use for all of this stuff. If you have a group of radios that only receiving, get yourself and active multicoupler and you can have them all share one antenna. Where will this antenna be?

For the station alerting, you can of course keep using the FedSig informers. You could take all their audio ouputs, combine them with an audio mixer, and pipe that audio around the station. For the vidual alert, you can simply use the relay on the informer to drive any kind of indicator you want (strobe light, LED, etc). You can mute the select an unselcect audio all you want. If the audio from the informers is used for alerting only and seperate from the console audio, it will always open up upon a tone.

I'm not expert on base stations so I won't touch that one.

[Bob]

Per their website, I think the only two viable /\/\ options for a radio right now are the MTR2000 and the Quantar.

I have some (limited) experience with the Quantar. It should do all the backend stuff we need to do. I don't know anything about the MTR2000.

I just found the Ga price list online. Anyone know how out of date it might be?

Base price for a Quantar is ~11k? and an MTR2000 is ~7-8k?

If this is the case, we may be better off spending the extra $4k.

[alex]

MTR2000 info from the pricebook i have...

BASE cost: $1020

Add:

ENH: 30 - 1W (132-174 MHZ) INCLUDES DOUBLE INTERNAL CIRCULATOR X345 512 $1,515.00
Select One Power Option
ENH: VHF 40-1W R 1&2 132-174 X330 512 $1,190.00
Select One Power Option
ENH: VHF 100 - 25W R1 132-154 OR 150-174 MHZ. X530 512 $1,785.00
INCLUDES:Single Internal Circulator order 1 power
ADD: POWER FACTOR CORRECT CHOKE X586AJ 877 $185.00

If your doing VHF (one of the above items)

So, if your looking at a 100w VHF station, it would be $1020+1785

Now: add software:

ENH: CONVENTIONAL ANALOG OPERATION X597 512 $2,975.00

Add base station:

ADD: BASE STATION OPERATION X622 512 $0.00
Select 1 Station Operation. DOES NOT include Antenna Relay, if relay is required order X371. **Station Operation is not needed when ordering trunking options X997 or X51.


The list goes on... depending on your specific requirements for the MTR...

So lets look @ Quantar...

QUANTAR FAMILY MODEL T5365 509 $7,115.00
ALL ORDERS MUST LIST THE RADIO MODEL (T5365) AS A MAIN LINE ITEM

Add VHF 100w...

ADD: 125W QUANTAR, VHF (132-174MHZ) X530 509 $4,197.00

Add Convetional Software:

ENH: CONVENTIONAL ANALOG OPERATION X597 A 448 $1,050.00
Not available in Asia-Pac market.

Choose a power supply...

FRU 600W DC PS 48/60V DC TLN3377 509 $2,200.00
210 W DC POWER SUPPLY 48/60 VDC TLN3378 509 $2,000.00
When ordered with T5589 and T5367, compatible with both models.
FRU 600 W DC PS 24VDC TLN3263 509 $2,200.00
FRU DC DC CONVERTER QUANTAR ASTROTAC TLN3264 509 $2,000.00


MTR looks like the cheaper way to go...

Above are list prices to the best of my knoledge.

-Alex

[nmfire10]

Don't forget, you can always use a low powered base station and feed it into an amplifier. A kenwood TKR750 is about $1,200 plus the cost of an amp to bring the power up to your liking.\

[tvsjr]

Don't forget, you can always use a low powered base station and feed it into an amplifier. A kenwood TKR750 is about $1,200 plus the cost of an amp to bring the power up to your liking.\

They're not Quantars, but the TKR-750/850 units are sweet, especially with the brand-new firmware (allows for DTMF control, all sorts of things). I'm about to order one for the 2-meter ham band as a repeater for my local Skywarn/RACES group (hmm, hamsexy!)

[nmfire10]

The new firmware has DTMF control!!!!! HOLY Looks like I need to make some phone calls tommorow

[EOppegaard]

The new firmware has DTMF control!!!!! HOLY Looks like I need to make some phone calls tommorow

Dear lord...there goes the neighborhood

[thebigphish]

hahah, there goes YOUR neighborhood! . Time to put you guys back in the active scangroup locally!

[tvsjr]

The new firmware has DTMF control!!!!! HOLY Looks like I need to make some phone calls tommorow

Yep, sure does (and several other new goodies), although I don't believe you can upgrade a Version 1 to a Version 2 with a simple chip change (looks like a full hardware revision too). I don't have one in hand quite yet, however.

Matt, I PMed you with full details.

[ASTROMODAT]

A fully equipped MTR2000 will run about $12k, whereas a fully equipped Quantar will be around $18k. Most large agencies will get a discount of around 15% from these list prices.

If you are going to look at an off-shore product such as Kenwood, you should also consider the new ICOM commercial repeater. It has a highly sophisticated internal controller that is commanded via DTMF tones, and it's a lot more flexible and advanced in what its internal controller can do, as compared to the relatively plain jane Kenwood repeater. They are priced abpout the same, but you get a lot more value and features with the new ICOM.

larry

[Dan562]

Hello Bob,

I read and reread your infrastructure BASE STATION configuration and each time I read your specifications, I do not see a thing about a REPEATER in the set up. I think someone misread your ideas using the CDM750 as a BASE STATION.

What I have read sounds like a T4 - 8R LB/Hi-Band/UHF TRC Selective Wire Line Muting function as a SP Bid & Quote from Motorola. Now there's good news and bad news about you special configuration using Motorola Products, I think this can be accomplished BUT the Infrastructure's Marketing and Brand personnel will REFUSE your SP Bid & Quote.

Why you may ask? Well the Product Groups don't think your request will make any money for the corporation. In fact unless you're requesting 100 units to be SP modified for a non-standard configuration ... Motorola's Marketing, Brand and Engineering Product Groups will refuse to Quote anything. You can take this information to the bank. Motorola's blowing both of their feet off by REFUSING to do small quantities of SP modifications. Their personnel believe EVERYTHING can be accomplished in software .... in your case it can not!

Here's Motorola's current Attitude towards their entire CGISS customer base otherwise known as Land Mobile Radio segment, "We will build Standard Products and the customers will come to us and buy our products." It doesn't matter if you're Public Safety, the U.S. Federal Government, in the Transportation market such commerical Airlines or the Shipping Industry, Public Power Companies or for that fact anyone else. If you do want a SP configuration Motorola's personnel figure your Radio Shop can modify the equipment otherwise known as do it yourself!

Here's something else to think about the Quantars and the MTR2000 Base Stations are only built on High Band VHF, UHF, 800 & 900 MHz absolutely no Low Band 30 to 50 MHz products exist. The Quantars are capable of Analog and Astro Common Air Interface and you would be required to purchase the X153 Enhanced Wild Card Option to script out the necessary functions to have TRC Selective Wire Line Muting. If you chose the MTR2000 you would require the AUX I/O Option and X153 Option, C540 for the System Connector J5 and one T5731 MTR Second Receiver per RF channel and a 60" Cabinet or a 7' Open Relay Rack for mounting the stations. Oh yes, the Quantar is capable of Tone Remote Control (TRC) or DC but can not operate mixed modes as far as 12.5 kHz and 25 kHz in the software. The MTR2000 can only operate using TRC for RF channel selection and I do not recall if the station can operate mixed modes as far as 12.5/25 kHz RF channel modes. I know the MTR2000 is not capable or upgradable to Astro.

You also should consider how you plan to make your equipment APCO P25 compatible with the Homeland Security requirements for InterOperability. You configuration is going to be an interesting challenge whoever does the modifications

Dan

[nmfire10]

Yes, he may not need a repeater. But the repeaters make excellent base stations, you just turn off the REPEAT function

Lets see
$12,000 MTR2000 base station
$1,5000 Kenwood or Icom base station

Concidering how much more the latter ones do and the quality is the same if not better, and the customer services is about 100x better, it would be criminal to not concider it.

[Bob]

Lots of good information here.

We are not looking for repeater functionality out of this radio. There's a possibility we may end up with an offsite repeater in the future, but it's not in the cards right now.

It looks like the only real options we have from Motorola are the Quantar and the MTR. Can anyone outline some of the pros and cons between the two?

Can someone also help me understand the CommandStar a little better. I have seen the sales documentation on the Motorola site, and understand that. There is, however, NO as-built documentation anywhere in our base. My understanding is that all of the paging and MDC1200 functionality is built into the console, and if we want to use it, it just has to be enabled.

I have full confidence that a Quantar or MTR will play nicely with the CommandStar. I have a little less confidence in getting our other receivers working properly - but I still think it can be done. The only functionality I really want to add to the configuration is integrating the RX alerting to the console and being able to control it.

[alex]

Well, this will help you, and may not.

I would say buy a MTR2000. The extra money spent on the Quntar (unless you have grant money to piss down the toilet) is probably not going to get you very far over the MTR (to the best of my knoledge for your needs).

Get an MTR that you can channel steer to all of the channels you talk on. Use the console to control the channel steering. I'm not sure how many channels a commandstar can control. I've seen the base control cards with 4 channels selectable - I know one safety agency locally has one with 4 channel control.

Buy the secondary reciever for the MTR - leave that on your primary dispatch channel.

Then your next question becomes how to do the rest of this.

My first inclination was to tell you to buy recieve only radios for the rest of the channels you need in the console, including those of which you need to transmit on. This gives you dedicated recieve (much like another agency near you). The only issue I can think of with this, is there's probably no way to take the audio path from the radio, and then transmit back to the MTR easily, without some nice backend wiring. So someone woul dhave to listen on one part of the command*, and then conciously think to transmit on the MTR side, with the right channel selected. That requires too much thought and understanding than the average person will probably be able to successfully handle.

If you oculd figure out a way to make this work on the backend, I think you'd be OK.

Regardkess, You might be looking at purchasing seperate tx/rx units / channel, and you might have to "suck it up" and do it that way.

At that point, you might as well buy a few CDM's, and use those if the MTR/Quantar your considering isn't going to be used as a repeater.

-Alex

[ASTROMODAT]

The single most important issue in comparing a Quantar to an MTR2000 is whether you are using legacy analog FM only, versus a need for IMBE (or mixed mode ops involving both FM and IMBE). The MTR can never, ever support IMBE. The Quantar supports P25 IMBE (if it is equipped with the optional IMBE firmware) as well as legacy analog FM, including mixed mode operations where it will handle both modes "on-the-fly."

Keep in mind that if you run IMBE with the Quantar, you will need a DIU3000 since there is no vocoder in the Quantar (whether it is configured as a base station or repeater). The DIU3000 will add about $9,000 to your cost, if you include the optional DES-OFB or AES encryption UCM module, or about $8,000 for clear IMBE ops.

larry

[Dan562]

Hello Bob,

I've been searching the /\/\ website for VHF Quantar information and can only find information on the "Limited" versions for UHF T Band 470-520 MHz and Data Base Stations DBS. This gives me a real bad feeling that the Quantar Product Line has been Canceled probably some time in 2004 due to the product running it's 10 year production life span. Possibly Alex can confirm or deny this information if he has a chance verify what I'm stating.

The replacement station is the STR3000 and must be ready for release to the production Test Area for shipping. The perplexing question I have, "Is the STR3000 now capable and backwards compatible with the entire Quantar Product Line and does the STR3000 have the Wildcard Hardware and Software option available?" These STR3000 Base Station / Repeater / Additional Receiver options are suppose to be manufactured for VHF Low Band 30-50 MHz, VHF High Band 132-174 MHz, UHF Band 380-520 MHz, UHF 700 MHz, 800 MHz and 900 MHz Bands. They all are designed for a Low Power Exciter driving a High Power Booster Amplifier. The customer will order one version station & the RF Power Output will be set according to the FCC License issued. I have been informed that the stations will be capable of 6.25 kHz (Digital/Secure Encryption only APCO P25II), 12.5 kHz Narrow Band Analog or Digital APCO P25 Astro/Secure Encryption & 25 kHz Analog/12 Kb Securenet modes. Oh yeah, theses new STR3000 stations operate +27.6 VDC because of the RF transistors in the HPBA. The Power Supplies & Battery Back Up requirement must be interesting to say the least. And the cost of these stations must be lots of $$$$$$$$$$$.

This would leave you with only the MTR2000 Series stations to accomplish your box level design. The MTR2000 Brand person in Schaumburg is Jody Brown and she can tell you about an orderable FRU Kit DLNxxxxA for the MTR2000 T2-5R that will enable you to interface one Base Station and up to 4 additional MTR2000 Second Receivers to provide the Wire Line Mute. This configuration would require a 4-Wire circuit between the Base Station and the CommandStar console and an additional 2-Wire circuit between each additional MTR2000 Second Receiver and the console. You will need to order the AUX I/O options with the MTR2000 Base station to make this work correctly. This configuration also requires an Active Receiver Multi-Coupler with separate TX and RX Antennas and some modified Software Scripting to the Wildcard Tables. If you need to know more Bob, please PM me.

nmfire10 suggested Kenwood and ICOM Product Line because of the Pricing. It might be a wise idea to look at your requirements from another LMR manufacture other than /\/\. I know that ICOM is located in the State of Washington and will custom build stations per the customer's request. Remember to inquire about 12.5/25 kHz mixed mode Channel spacing and about the APCO P25 Digital format on their base station products. You wouldn;t want to make a big dollar purchase and 3-5 years from now need to scrap out the entire station when the FCC forces your Fire Department Ambulance service to switch to digital. Both of these companies can be found on Google. ICOM might be able to build a custom station for the price of the MTR2000 alone so it's worth your time to investigate their products.

As far as the CommandStar console, there's got to be an actual Model and Serial numbers probably located on the Back or Bottom of the unit. I looked at web information on the console and it will do up to 12 channels using Tone Remote Control TRC and the MTR2000 is capable of TRC only.

Dan

[Bob]

After doing a little more research on the existing infrastructure and what's available, I'm starting to think that I'm making it more difficult than it has to be.

I've done deconstruction and reconstruction in my head and on paper several times, and broken it down into subsystems. It's now a lot easier for me to understand in my own mind. Tell me if I'm going in the right direction...

A 4-channel MTR2000 will replace the existing GE MASTR. It will seamlessly integrate with the CommandStar without changing anything (except maybe DC control to Tone control). By doing just that, we'll maintain status quo.

Now, we start adding stuff on to the console.

Once that's done, we want to replace the scanners with dedicated CDMs for our rx only channels. Can I control those CDMs (audio on/off) from an ACM? What I'd ultimately like to do is put two of them on a dual CCM and run the audio to the unselect speaker, and run the other ones from an ACM. My gut says yes (via tone term panels) but I'm not sure.

Now, for station alerting. I NEED to be able to decode QCII on one channel. (one of the TX/RX channels on the MTR) I WANT to be able to decode QCII on two other channels (the RX channels that I'd control from the third DCCM). I want to be able to mute each of these channels ('and' signalling - not crossmute) and have them open upon QC2 activation. From there, we trip relays for lights, open up speakers throughout the base, etc.


The fact that things are starting to make sense in my own mind doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It's starting to sound easier to accomplish. It doesn't sound to me like our needs are all that uncommon.

[Dan562]

Hello Bob,

I've been meaning to respond to your last post ... your idea is clear as mud the way you describe your radio system .... maybe it's just me but I can't read your mind. All I can figure out is what you have right now, a GE Base Station, how many frequencies I'm not sure and if this station has QCII decoding, I still haven't determined that.

You've got 4 scanners RX only, 2 Plectrons RX only, what are the frequencies on each, do they Decode QCII? Two Federal Informers, 1 on VHF High Band and the 2nd on VHF Low Band that Decode QCII and perform the other built in functions. You have either 9 or 12 frequency channels and want an additional 7 channels?!?!

Well I can guarantee that the MTR2000 Base Station does not Decode QCII as a Standard off the shelf product. I do not know if the X151 Option for AUX I/O is capable of programming QCII tones. If you do require the MTR2000 to do this function, MIDIAN Electronics sells QCII Decoder boards that would need to be interfaced by a very knowledgeable field technician on to the MTR2000 station. You would be required to order the X151 AUX I/O Option, the X233 Wildcard, the C540 AUX I/O Plug and extra wires to interface to the J5 System Connector.

It would not be a bad idea to order a T5766 MTR2000 Base Station and a T5769 MTR Second Receiver with a X151 AUX I/O Module, X233 Wildcard, a C540 Kit and a X216 4-Wire Wireline Board (for configuring the 600 Ohm Wirelines for High Impedance). The MTR2K 2nd Reciever would be the place I would ADD the MIDIAN QCII Decoder module if it is required on the Base Station configuration. What you have described you want all three QCII receivers to Unmute the audio simultaneously so a special interface board with a common "OR Gate Output" would need to be built up and wired to a common point to accomplish this requirement. You'll have your Sales and Repair shop technicians quite busy doing all of this construction, special Wildcard programming and interfacing to the system.

I'm not certain how you are envisioning the CDM Series Mobiles interfacing with the Console and indepentently Muting their audio lines since the mobile do not provide 600 Ohm Wireline audio. I think these mobiles would require the special AUX boards or Tone Remote Control Decoder Interfaces for providing some of your requirements .... I'm just guessing at this. I have a feeling this is why you have the four individual scanners, the two Plectron receivers and the two Federal Informers because of system cost. Heaven only knows what you neeed for the antenna system. I have a feeling it's going to require an Active Receiver Multicoupler with separate antennas on VHF High Band, who knows about UHF and one VHF Low Band Groung Plane antenna.

Champaine taste on a Diet Pepsi budget.

Dan

[Bob]

Dan,
Thanks for keeping this thread alive. Our system has been cobbled and lashed together by several years of Comms folks who barely know which end of the radio to talk into. That's why we have the base radio, plectrons, scanners, and informers. I'm good with mobiles and portables, but admittedly, I'm lacking on the base radio side. Let me start out with a little more detail on the present state.

GE backend interfaced into a CommandStar console - that much you understand. Freqs in the radio are 155.355, 154.055, 155.175, and 155.295. We are dispatched on 155.355, and our admin channel is 154.055.

We respond with three different FDs. Two of them are dispatched on 46.42, and the other on 154.310.

We have two plectrons in the basement to provide audio to the console on 46.42 and 154.310. All they do is provide audio. There are currently 4 scanners that each provide an additional channel of RX audio to the console. Each scanner and plectron has a dedicated, independent 'unselect' speaker with a mechanical switch to mute the audio.

Our crews are alerted to the calls via three FS Informers in the hallway. One is for us, on .355. The other two are for the FDs on .310 and 46.42. There is no QCII decode happening at the base radio or console level. The only QCII decoding is happening via the Informers in the hallway.

And this is part of the problem. When you hit the 'mute' button on a channel on the console or hit the 'mute all' button on the console, it mutes all of the channels on the radio. When out tones are activated on the dispatch channel, nothing happens at the console. The only way you would know about the job is via the Informer.


Basically, what I'd like to do is update and consolidate (perhaps simplify is the better word) the backend and bring the functionality to the console.

We can maintain Status Quo by replacing the GE with an MTR - that's easy.

Once that's done, we can replace the scanners with CDM750s and the plectrons with CDM1250s. (I'll answer why 1250s in a second) Again, we can maintain 'functional' status quo. We can add additional functionality at the console if we use tone term kits on the CDMs.

Now how to tackle the QCII decode portion of it. I'd like to add another dual CCM to the console, and control the 1250s via the CCM - essentially tone-remoting both radios. The 1250s will now do the QCII decode for the FDs.

Now I need to figure out how to do QCII decode on our dispatch channel. How that is going to happen, I'm not quite sure yet.

I'm not sure I'd say 'champagne taste on a diet pepsi budget' at this point. Now, i'm more concerned with making it work right - budged be damned. I have secured external sources of funding that we can tap if we need to. I've also been setting the expectation that this is going to be expensive. The general response is 'As long as it's better than what we have now, it doesn't matter'

Hopefully the mud is starting to thin a little.

[Dan562]

Hi Bob,

I'm starting top piece together your present radio system and it sounds like several after thoughts by adding additional receivers. When sitting at the dispatch console, what is the purpose of simul-monitoring your transmitted audio, I think that could drive a person nuts unless it there to verify everything working but you still the manual Mute switches.

You didn't provide the four scanner frequencies so what are they programmed on?

Your system seems to have a lot of redundancy in the receive mode almost too much. If it weren't for the 46.42 MHz frequency, your request could be handled by a MTR2K and several MTR additional receivers. You should also consider the Battery Back Up Option in case of lost of Primary Power at your station .... as you are putting together a wish list.

Dan

[Bob]

When sitting at the dispatch console, what is the purpose of simul-monitoring your transmitted audio,

There is no need, want, or desire to do so. When we get a job, we have to manually reset the Informer in order to prevent audio feedback. Current state is a PITA.

You didn't provide the four scanner frequencies so what are they programmed on?

They are a combination of VHF and lowband. 45.88, 46.48, 154.815, 154.385 in particular. There has been an ask for RX ability on a couple additional lowband freqs and a couple additional VHF freqs. There has also been some discussion about adding at least one - maybe two- UHF freqs. (My response is 'One step at a time' )

Your system seems to have a lot of redundancy in the receive mode almost too much. If it weren't for the 46.42 MHz frequency, your request could be handled by a MTR2K and several MTR additional receivers.

That's why I'm asking the questions. I'd be happy with just adding additional MTR receivers for the VHF stuff. I still need to decode QCII on our dispatch freq and the two fire dispatch freqs though. That's why I was leaning towards the CDMs.

The battery backup is definitely on the wishlist. (scrapping the CommandStar and going with a Centracom is on the wishlist too)


Thanks again for the help.

[wavetar]

Really, over all it's not too big a deal. Replacing the GE with an MTR is a good first step, as it'll do what you need & wil be super-reliable. The CDM units will be more than adequate for replacing your current scanners & whatnot, and far cheaper than MTR2000 receivers too. Some people might not like the thought of using the CDM's as they're not on Motorola's 'site approved' list of equipment...but nothing under 5-10 grand is, really. They are far better than your current receivers in all likelyhood, and can do the QCII no problem. With the money you save over MTR receivers, you can by a spare VHF & Low band CDM if you desire. Interfacing the CDM to a tone remote adaptor is no big deal either, if tone remoting is what's required in some instances.

The main issue I see is going to be setting up the CommandStar properly to make it do what you want/need it to do with all of the new gear. That's a little out of my realm, as I've never dealt with one before. From the sounds of it, they are somewhat like a standalone version of the Series II Button & Leds console. Hopefully there's someone in your area experienced with these units, or you have a good contact within Motorola that can help you out without charging a ridiculous amount of money.

Todd

[Dan562]

Hi Bob,

Here's what I want you to think about before giving an answer. For the 4 individual scanner frequencies, how often do all frequencies become active with radio voice traffic?

As far as MTR2K T5769 UHF Additional Receivers may be a good time for Pricing the equipment.

Gosh I wish I could add a Block Diagram JPEG to this post but I don't have access to a website so here it goes without.

T5766 MTR2K Base Station

F1 Tx 155.355 MHz Rx 000.000 MHz Dispatch
F2 Tx 154.055 MHz Rx 154.055 MHz Administration
F3 Tx 155.175 MHz Rx 155.175 MHz
F4 Tx 155.295 MHz Rx 155.295 MHz

An Active VHF (High Band) Five Receiver Multi-Coupler

T5769 MTR2K 2ND Receiver
F1 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 155.355 MHz Wireline Mute, Midian QCII Decoder
with Lights and Audio fed throughout station house

T5769 MTR2K 3RD Receiver
F5 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 154.310 MHz Wireline Mute, Midian QCII Decoder
with Lights and Audio fed throughout station house

CDM1250 4TH Mobile Transceiver Receiver only
F6 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 046.420 MHz Audio Mute & Internal QCII Decoder
with Lights and Audio fed throughout station house

T5769 MTR2K 5TH Receiver
F7 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 154.815 MHz Wireline Mute

T5769 MTR2K 6TH Receiver
F8 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 154.385 MHz Wireline Mute

CDM1250 7TH Mobile Transceiver Receiver only
F9 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 045.880 MHz Audio Mute

CDM1250 8TH Mobile Transceiver Receiver only
F10 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 046.480 MHz Audio Mute

FUTURE EQUIPMENT:

T5769 MTR2K 9TH Receiver
F11 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 454.000 MHz Wireline Mute

T5769 MTR2K 10TH Receiver
F12 Tx 000.000 MHz Rx 454.000 MHz Wireline Mute

Either modifying the present CommandStar Remote into a TRC 6 Function Tones Console 4 TX Frequencies, 1 QCII Reset and 1 Spare or replacement with a Centracom Console.

The reason you would require the MTR2K T5769 2ND Receiver is that you want to eliminate the 3 Federal Informers so using the MTR2K Base Station on TX and a separate MTR2K 2ND Receiver will enable you to have two functions even if you have selected F2, F3 or F4 on the Base Station. The F1 @ND Receiver will remain "Live" for all emergency QCII traffic.

Now have you determined how much voice traffic is used on the scanner frequencies?

Dan

[jim]

If the duty-cycle of this "base" radio is very low, a simple CDM or TK790 will work just fine. If you're not dispatching an entire county or even several departments, this is a low duty cycle. Why spend $18K for a Quantar when a simple $800 radio will work just as well? This would be different if the base were also a repeater, now.
The realistic difference between 45 and 100 watts will almost certainly not be noticed. If you are worried about the lower power, get a better antenna and feedline with the money saved. With the $17,000 that you'll save, you could buy a spare of everything critical in case you have a failure or lightning strike, you'll be back on the air right away. With the saved $, one could install deskset remotes and other goodies. In the end, the performance will be the same.

There are PLENTY of CDMs out there that handle comms in larger public safety buildings with no issues whatsoever. And you don't have to kiss Motorola's ass to purschase or upgrade them.

[Dan562]

Hello Jim,

Apparently you haven't read this entire thread, that's all I can determine at this point. Unless you know something the rest of the people including Bob himself contributing information to Bob's initial request Dated January 3, 2005, as to upgrading his system. As I have dicovered through correspondance, Bob already knows he has a half a$$ mess he's already dealing with for their essential radio communications equipment.

The other contributing people have provided Bob with alternative solutions recommending Kenwood and ICOM but it seems to me that Bob has chosen /\/\'s equipment as the supplier. At least the MTR2000 T5766 Base Station / Repeater Series Product Line as the main station and possibly the MTR2000 T5769 Receivers where they can be used in the station configuration.

Possibly you don't want to admit that /\/\ makes a superior infrastructure designed, manufactured and priced product, okay I'll accept your feelings towards the corporation. But the problems truthfully lies in /\/\ Marketing and Brand personnel, Customer Service and Training the technical field personnel for box level configurations.

The product Training can not be placed entirely upon /\/\ as the customer should do their own research on the product and features / options offered. Then being in Public Safety utilize the State or County Radio Maintainence Technical Service personnel as they are available to help guide them through this process. In Bob's case, he's knowledgeable on the portables & mobiles functionality but doesn't have the expertise on /\/\ infrastructure products but Bob's learning.

As for your comments regarding "having spare everything" realisticly that is wasteful or penny wise dollar foolish. Why doesn't Bob get full redundancy on the entire Public Safety Ambulances and all related equipment? Mainly the local and county would fire him. Do your research, purchase wisely, good reputable radio equipment that can be swapped out at a moments notice on a /\/\ exchange program "Shipped FedEx" putting the customer and equipment back in service ASAP.

This is the only thing I've observed about field service technical people, "there are either the extremely smart or the extremely stupid people performing two-way radio sales/service/installations .... there's no in between category!"

If Bob wants to use CDMs for everything that's fine too but I would not consider the CDM product's reliability as good as the MTR2000 for Public Safety use. Jim don't take my word, just go through the Infrastructure's Posts other than this one and you'll discover how different individuals feel comparing the CDM Series and the MTR2000 Series Base/Repeaters. Dollar for dollar spent, MTR2000 wins out.

Dan

[jim]

The MTR/MSF is superior to the CDM, but for many base stations, the CDM is just fine.

Does a volunteer FD that runs 60 call per year in a town of 3500 need an MSF5000/Quantar?
Not a chance.

I did read the post but as I take it, this isn't going to be a large dispatch center that will be running the hell out of the system. There are many a CDM, Maxtrac and Kenwood out there that ARE in dispatch centers that handle many communities. One local center near us uses Desktracs and they've been in place for years. Aren't these just a Maxtrac in a box? They work fine.

The big dollar items are great, but is this what they need? I don't know. You don't know. Neither of us has even been there. The CDM/Max might work if set up properly or maybe not. They may need more than that. This post is for advice. What needs to be done is to have a reputable shop come in and evaluate their actual needs and put a system together. This entire system sounds like an effing nightmare from the many additions and bastardizations performed over the years. It seems that it all needs removed and done from the ground-up.

Many of the "high buck" units are out there being wasted. There is an MTR2K sitting in a FD a mile away from here that does nothing but receive analog VHF for a small area. Doesn't one think that a simple CDM or even a GM300 could do that with a CPI tone interface? What the real shame is that they have this MTR in place with a folded dipole mounted only at roof height. Even an SM50 or M1225 with hardline and an antenna 50' in the air will receive better than this MTR installation. What a waste. The antenna nor any part of the system even had grounding. That is why the MTR went out 2 years ago during a local lightning strike. This is an example of the largest "M" dealer in the area and thier so-called expertise and installation.

As for redundancy, there is nothing at all wrong with having anything spare in-house. If they were going to spend over 10K on an MTR, they can certainly afford an extra $600 for a spare radio and other pieces. There are many times that I wished that somebody had a spare anything when a tragic failure hits.

I'm not at all saying that a CDM even compares to an MTR/MFS/Quantar, but each has its place. If the small one works for the intended application, why do you need more at 15X the cost? If the MTR/MSF IS needed, then by all means, use it. There's nothing better out there.

Kinda like installing a large stainless steel walk-in freezer on the back of your house. It would offer room for expansion (that you'll never need), cool the same as your $700 Kenmore and set you back in the five-figure range. But if you DO need it, go for it.

[Bob]

Todd - I was hoping you'd chime in sooner or later. Thank you for the input.

Dan - Thank you for your continued input. Your suggested config makes a great deal of sense to me.

Jim - Thank you for your input as well. We have considered several mobile type radios as a primary radio. A CDM won't cut it. Fact of the matter is that the terrain in out district requires a 100 watt radio in all of our vehicles and 100 watts plus serious gain for our base. Our mode of operation doesn't particularly lend itself to a 'one radio and one scanner' type of dispatch center.
A CDM, however, is being considered as a backup radio.

To address some of the other discussion:
Yes, I've been handed a hell of a mess. I have to coordinate the replacement of our entire fleet of mobiles and portables in the next nine months. Secondary to that is replacement of the bastardized base-radio infrastructure. I'm VERY happy that Xerox sent me to Project Management classes before they booted my ass out the door - I'm gonna need those skills this year!

It may not seem like a lot, but our agency covers around 100 square miles, across three fire districts. The daytime population of our district is in the ballpark of 100,000 and the steady nighttime population in the ballpark of 30,000. We cover about 30 miles of Interstate highway, including the most travelled section of I90 in New York State. Our district is also home to the fastest growing community in New York State, and one of the fastest growing communities in the US. Our call base is between 2500 and 3000 annually, and my gut tells me that with a recent casino opening and mall expansion, our volume is going to spike.

That said, we're not a volunteer firehouse in Podunk that runs 60 calls a year. We're not a commercial ambulance agency that runs 10000 calls a year either. With all of the growth that we've seen, and will continue to see, I want to make sure that we do this right the first time. Sure, an MTR or a Quantar may be wasted now... but 10 years from now? I doubt it.

Jim... Your point about having a reputable shop come in and do an evaluation is well taken. That is definiteloy in the cards. I just want to make sure they don't try to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. That's why I'm turning to the community here. I also agree that the system needs to be yanked and rebuilt from the ground up. If I have my way, that's what'll happen.

[Dan562]

Hi Jim,

It's a awfully long thread and if Bob could trust his local radio service shop which he doesn't, they could have recommended some new product configuration. I still think Bob needs at least a MTR2000 Base Station with the so-called AUX I/O Wildcard option to Mute all of the external receivers recovered audio to the console and reset the 3 individual QCII receivers. Bob wrote that having all of the external receiver "Live" when anyone was Dispatching was a PITA and I'm quoting him. Bob also requested a 100 Watt station. I don't believe the CDM Subscriber Mobile radios are capable of that RF power level.

I know your in the radio business, well I was too, till last year when /\/\ management decided they didn't need my services any longer after 23 years with the corporation, no Buyout, no nothing, just have a life. Why you may ask? /\/\ in their infinite wisdom decided to exit the Infrastructure Specialty Products business unless the customer would guarantee ordering 100 SP units and I was the only guy left out of 5 people. I still think they're nuts because /\/\ management tried to convince me that they were losing money on SPs! Yeah Right! They had one order that processed last year that /\/\ made $1.4 million on the SP alone not including the 300+ T5365 Quantars or the special Transportable Zero Cases and that was just one SP order. They even told the U.S. Federal Government to go Fork Off on some of their re-occurring SP orders. I'm really surprise that the federal agencies didn't send some high level officials in to adjust /\/\ attitude. Yeah, they're losing money but not in their CGISS (LMR) division.

Incidently MSF5000 is not interchangeable with Quantar Products nor is Quantar with MTR2000 Products. The MSF5000 / 10000 were Analog / 12Kb Securenet modes only, Quantar was Analog / 12 Kb Securenet / Astro/Astro Secure / APCO P25 Type 1 and MTR2000 is Analog NOT upgradeable to 12 Kb Securenet, Astro/Astro-Secure or APCO P25 Types I or II. If you skimmed the thread, it appears that Quantar Limited is only available on the UHF "T" Band 470 MHz to 520 MHz so it's only a matter of time when the Quantars will be killed altogether.

What is the replacement? Glad you wanted to know, they're called STR3000 Digital Cabable stations APCO P25 Type II. /\/\ brought them out on Trunking first but they will eventually be available for VHF Low Band 30 MHz to 50 MHz, VHF High Band 132 MHz to 174 MHz, UHF 380 MHz to 520 MHz, 700 MHz, 800 MHz and 900 MHz Bands. As the Marketing requirements are all met, these stations will be capable of Analog, Astro/Astro-Secure and APCO P25 Type I & II. Securenet is a dead issue since it takes up too much bandwidth.

If you thought MSF5K, Quantar and MTR2K were expensive, get ready to dig a lot deeper into your financial pockets for the Quantar Next Generation STR3000 Infrastructure Products. You may want to have those defibulators handy! Oh yeah, they also will have the Wildcard option available. The operating voltage is +26.7 VDC which should be interesting for Battery Back Up requirements!

I've given Bob the benefit of the doubt on what I think he wants or needs spend a lot of my own time without any dollar amount to help pay my bills here at the house since the job market stinks! Thirty four plus years in Land Mobile Radio and nothing to show for it. There seems to be a need for my knowledge but no one wants to hire me. I was only trying to help and keep myself active with radio communication projects. As much I can tell, this is a T4R3 - 8R with possibilities of 10R configuration with an Active Receiver Multi-coupler, separate Tx and Rx Antenna systems.

Bob, possibly there's one other solution for your Ambulances/Personnel, switch out everyone to go to Nextel for their Subscriber units. Coverage won't be a problem, you'll have the availability for Private Calls or Trunking Groups on Direct Connect (PTT Mode) and Interconnect for telephone service. Leave your Federal Informers in place for the alarms, doors and lights and some audio monitor receivers. Georgia State Police switched 6-7 years ago and they LOVE the system! And if you've got a system or radio problem being Public Safety, they'll be on it before you'll blink your eyes.

Jim, maybe you would like to put your best foot forward since you have a business in two-way radio and money coming in the door to take over this thankless responsibility.

Dan

[pmb1010]

[quote="tvsjr"]but the TKR-750/850 units are sweet, especially with the brand-new firmware (allows for DTMF control, all sorts of things). I'm about to order one for the 2-meter ham band as a repeater for my local Skywarn/RACES group
[quote]

Our local club bought a TKR-750.

Does the Kenwood unit, in fact, accept DTMF control? I didnt see that at all in the user or tech manual when I looked thru it.
We need a way to turn off the repeat function via 2m.

(phone line to be installed soon, but OTA right now would be nice...)

[jayres]

Bob, possibly there's one other solution for your Ambulances/Personnel, switch out everyone to go to Nextel for their Subscriber units. Coverage won't be a problem, you'll have the availability for Private Calls or Trunking Groups on Direct Connect (PTT Mode) and Interconnect for telephone service. Leave your Federal Informers in place for the alarms, doors and lights and some audio monitor receivers. Georgia State Police switched 6-7 years ago and they LOVE the system! And if you've got a system or radio problem being Public Safety, they'll be on it before you'll blink your eyes.

Nextel for primary dispatch / comms? EEEEKKKK!!!!!!!!!


I hope Nextel has made some major improvements lately... There are so many issues here, lack of control over the system, busy's, availability, coverage (and unless I misread it, you did say you had some *terrain issues*. Sorry, a 300 mw 800 MHz handheld that will not cut it in a lot of areas. We use them for 2 of the agencies I work for a 4 others that I work with, they are great for some things, just not a primary dispatch/communications method. Using Nextel for secondary comms is great, but if you use it for primary you are just asking for problems... (speaking from experience there!)

[tvsjr]

[Does the Kenwood unit, in fact, accept DTMF control? I didnt see that at all in the user or tech manual when I looked thru it.
We need a way to turn off the repeat function via 2m.

(phone line to be installed soon, but OTA right now would be nice...)

Only in the Version 2 TKRs... you'll know these because they require KPG-91D to program. Version 1 radios didn't have DTMF control AFAIK. V2s have been out for at least a year.

[pmb1010]

[Does the Kenwood unit, in fact, accept DTMF control? I didnt see that at all in the user or tech manual when I looked thru it.
We need a way to turn off the repeat function via 2m.

(phone line to be installed soon, but OTA right now would be nice...)

Only in the Version 2 TKRs... you'll know these because they require KPG-91D to program. Version 1 radios didn't have DTMF control AFAIK. V2s have been out for at least a year.

OK, I got a hold of the guy doing the programming.

We need help...

Here is what he said:

"I actually tried activating this feature once, and was unsuccessful.
If we can get some help on this from the user group he is in contact with, maybe we can get this working."

Is there any trick to get the DTMF feature of this TKR-750 repeater to be controlled via 2m input?

[tvsjr]

OK, I got a hold of the guy doing the programming.

We need help...

Here is what he said:

"I actually tried activating this feature once, and was unsuccessful.
If we can get some help on this from the user group he is in contact with, maybe we can get this working."

Is there any trick to get the DTMF feature of this TKR-750 repeater to be controlled via 2m input?

Not really. First, confirm that KPG-66D won't program the radios, that they require KPG-91D with a serial starting out 091... I can't remember if there's any Version 2 indication on the radio itself, I've slept since then.

The DTMF controls don't work by actually controlling the function directly; rather, they emulate someone pushing buttons on the front panel. For instance, if you wanted to have a DTMF-controlled repeater disable, you'd assign a front panel button to repeater disable, then assign a DTMF tone sequence (activate and deactivate) to that button. It's a tad strange, but it works great.

Drop me your email address and I'll try to send you a working codeplug for my 2m box.

[pmb1010]

taken to PM...

[wavetar]

I can't remember if there's any Version 2 indication on the radio itself, I've slept since then.

FYI, there was a "V2" designation on the 3 repeaters I've dealt with in the last year. And yes, they required KPG-91D software, not the KPG-66D.

Todd