I need to know about signalling when cemtracom Stacks pages in smartzone system. We are using two tone decoders on Smartnet radios to control doors and lights at several stations. Two tone Pages are stacked and sent out, then voice msg given. I have a problem with certain portables that do not hear the voice msg if they are not the first talkgroup in the stack, example: if EMS paged then fire , fire does not get voice msg. ( The paging tones do not effect portables they are there only to set off lights etc at stations)
Does any one know what the status bit is sent when stacking pages on a trunked system. Ex ID+ 1 =All talk group,ID+4 Emergency Patch etc. Most of the portables will hear all the tones and voice msg reguardless if the talkgroups are in the radio or scanning. EXAMPLE: if I don't have EMS (but do have fire)in my radio but EMS paged first then fire I stll hear the tones go out for EMS as well as the fire then voice msg, this is they way should work, but several radios only hear the fire tones ( not EMS tone) and no voice msg unless the fire is paged in the stack first.
Any help appreciated
Kevin
Centracom Gold stacking pages effects trunking talk groups
Moderator: Queue Moderator
So you say some radios hear the complete stacked page, while others don't? Sounds to me like the Centracom & Trunked system are doing their job properly....while possibly the radios out in the field aren't. Are they the same model radio, or are the radios which are receiving the complete message SmartNet capable (MTS/MCS2000, LCS/LTS2000, Maxtrac & Spectra "C" models, etc) while the radios which aren't are Type II Privacy Plus (MTX8000, GTX, Maxtrac & Spectra "B" models, etc)?
Todd
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
The exact nature of your problem is not completely clear from your description.
It appears that you may have two or three talkgroups involved here. One for accessing the two tone decoders for doors and lights, one for fire and EMS[2 TG] or separate ones for fire and EMS [3 TG].
You say the Centracom is part of a Smartzone system. In that context there would be one or more CEB's connected to an Embassy switch connected to a Zone Controller.
Centracom in Smartzone normally cannot send conventional [QCII] type paging to a trunked resource. Since you say you have two tone decoders attached to Smartnet radios - that implies that there is a control station attached to a BIM in the CEB for accessing the talkgroup that has those radios on it.
Then you say that the fire and EMS are sent stacked pages. Unless these talkgroups are also accessed by control stations - the only signal that could be sent to them would be a trunking signal like a call alert.
If these talkgroups - however many 1,2,3 - are in fact connected to the console through control stations, then you can analyze the problem by considering how CCII sends stacked and group pages to conventional channels [i.e. BIM's].
If all the members of a group use the same radio resource, the page tones will be sent in sequence. Once all the tones have been sent, the console gives the dispatcher a talk permit indication and opens a voice path.
If the page members use different radio resources AND those resources are simultaneous compatible [i.e. not cross-busied, not a second frequency on the same resource, etc.], then the console sends them simultaneously.
If you have one page for the first resource and two pages for a second resource, the console keys both resources and sends the one page on the first resource simultaneously with the first page on the second resource. Then the console keeps the first resource keyed [with dead air] while it sends the second [and any third, fourth, etc.] page on the second resorce.
When all the paging sequences in the queue have been transmitted, the console holds all the resources keyed while it gives the dispatcher the talk permit indication - which the dispatcher can then extend by pressing General Transmit..
Perhaps that will give you enough to deduce your issue - otherwise please elaborate on your specific equipment configuration as well as the specifics of the group page members.
This sort of issue is fairly common. For example many trunked system users still have conventional VHF or UHF paging for fire / rescue responders [volunteer departments, etc.] but also want to let members with trunked radios know about the call.
One way to do that is to have the dispatcher send the two tone page, then as soon as they press the General Transmit to extend the talk permit for the voice message, also use the mouse to do an "Instant Trasmit" on the trunking talkgroup. That way the voice message gets sent to both resources.
You can take that one step farther and put your responder radios into an Announcement Talkgroup so that when the dispatcher sends the voice message you gather them all up regardless of where there radios were or whether or not they were scanning.
This works well when you have a lot of folks that wear two hats - in smaller communities some of the Street Dept., Parks Dept, etc. workers may also be volunteer fire members.
It appears that you may have two or three talkgroups involved here. One for accessing the two tone decoders for doors and lights, one for fire and EMS[2 TG] or separate ones for fire and EMS [3 TG].
You say the Centracom is part of a Smartzone system. In that context there would be one or more CEB's connected to an Embassy switch connected to a Zone Controller.
Centracom in Smartzone normally cannot send conventional [QCII] type paging to a trunked resource. Since you say you have two tone decoders attached to Smartnet radios - that implies that there is a control station attached to a BIM in the CEB for accessing the talkgroup that has those radios on it.
Then you say that the fire and EMS are sent stacked pages. Unless these talkgroups are also accessed by control stations - the only signal that could be sent to them would be a trunking signal like a call alert.
If these talkgroups - however many 1,2,3 - are in fact connected to the console through control stations, then you can analyze the problem by considering how CCII sends stacked and group pages to conventional channels [i.e. BIM's].
If all the members of a group use the same radio resource, the page tones will be sent in sequence. Once all the tones have been sent, the console gives the dispatcher a talk permit indication and opens a voice path.
If the page members use different radio resources AND those resources are simultaneous compatible [i.e. not cross-busied, not a second frequency on the same resource, etc.], then the console sends them simultaneously.
If you have one page for the first resource and two pages for a second resource, the console keys both resources and sends the one page on the first resource simultaneously with the first page on the second resource. Then the console keeps the first resource keyed [with dead air] while it sends the second [and any third, fourth, etc.] page on the second resorce.
When all the paging sequences in the queue have been transmitted, the console holds all the resources keyed while it gives the dispatcher the talk permit indication - which the dispatcher can then extend by pressing General Transmit..
Perhaps that will give you enough to deduce your issue - otherwise please elaborate on your specific equipment configuration as well as the specifics of the group page members.
This sort of issue is fairly common. For example many trunked system users still have conventional VHF or UHF paging for fire / rescue responders [volunteer departments, etc.] but also want to let members with trunked radios know about the call.
One way to do that is to have the dispatcher send the two tone page, then as soon as they press the General Transmit to extend the talk permit for the voice message, also use the mouse to do an "Instant Trasmit" on the trunking talkgroup. That way the voice message gets sent to both resources.
You can take that one step farther and put your responder radios into an Announcement Talkgroup so that when the dispatcher sends the voice message you gather them all up regardless of where there radios were or whether or not they were scanning.
This works well when you have a lot of folks that wear two hats - in smaller communities some of the Street Dept., Parks Dept, etc. workers may also be volunteer fire members.
Centracom Gold stacking pages effects trunking talk groups
Trying to figure the symptoms as well as trying to discribe it has been one of the major problems. As it stands this is a Smart Net system, going to be upgraded to Smartzone in a few months. The Radios in question are EF Johnson 5100 Series Portable Radio which are Smartnet/Smartzone compatable. I believe this is a Johnson Problem but I am having problems conveying what is happening.
Basically no one sends 2-tone pages on a smartnet sysem, There are no trunking two-tone pagers. So the senerio we are using is unique.
There are no control stations as in a Conventioal system. In a conventional system you would stack the pages, the different freqs would tone out and and voice would be given, but in this secerio these are talk groups.
Normal operation is 3 pages are stacked, Fire, EMS . Police. the pages go out and voice msg given. You hear for example on an mts200 all three paging group tones and the message, even if you are only listening to 1 talkgroup example fire.
On the 5100's this works as above when not scanning, but when scanning if you are NOT the first talk group you don't hear anything, but if your talkgroup is the first in the stack you do. So depending on your position in the stack, whether you are scanning or not and if the 1st talkgroup in the stack is in the scan list depends on if you get your msg,
The fire guys don't want to listen to all the EMS paging if it dosent involve their department, Currently they page fire depts first which masks the problem.
CONFUSED YET?? Its took several months to go from the complaint to determining what is actually happening.
I believe it has to do with the status bits in relations to the talk group, this is why GTX's won't work properly, they don't know how to handel the console information. ( emergency, cross patch etc)
As soon as I mention paging the mindset seems to be the paging is actually doing something in the portables, it not. Its sort of like a like "a stacked multiselect" if that makes sense. Scanning brings up the same thing, you should get your msg on your talkgroup regardless if you are scanning, if its a multiselect, paging what ever.
Thanks for your replies its helping me define my problem so i can get a fix. two thirds of the battle is trying to explain this
Kevin
Basically no one sends 2-tone pages on a smartnet sysem, There are no trunking two-tone pagers. So the senerio we are using is unique.
There are no control stations as in a Conventioal system. In a conventional system you would stack the pages, the different freqs would tone out and and voice would be given, but in this secerio these are talk groups.
Normal operation is 3 pages are stacked, Fire, EMS . Police. the pages go out and voice msg given. You hear for example on an mts200 all three paging group tones and the message, even if you are only listening to 1 talkgroup example fire.
On the 5100's this works as above when not scanning, but when scanning if you are NOT the first talk group you don't hear anything, but if your talkgroup is the first in the stack you do. So depending on your position in the stack, whether you are scanning or not and if the 1st talkgroup in the stack is in the scan list depends on if you get your msg,
The fire guys don't want to listen to all the EMS paging if it dosent involve their department, Currently they page fire depts first which masks the problem.
CONFUSED YET?? Its took several months to go from the complaint to determining what is actually happening.
I believe it has to do with the status bits in relations to the talk group, this is why GTX's won't work properly, they don't know how to handel the console information. ( emergency, cross patch etc)
As soon as I mention paging the mindset seems to be the paging is actually doing something in the portables, it not. Its sort of like a like "a stacked multiselect" if that makes sense. Scanning brings up the same thing, you should get your msg on your talkgroup regardless if you are scanning, if its a multiselect, paging what ever.
Thanks for your replies its helping me define my problem so i can get a fix. two thirds of the battle is trying to explain this
Kevin
Essentially, you are correct, it sounds like a Johnson problem in scan mode...whether it's a programming issue (unknown to me, I've never programmed a Johnson) or whether it'll require a firmware upgrade remains to be seen. It seems the Johnson radios essentially 'ignore' the entire data stream once they see the first page isn't meant for them, in scan mode at least. The fact the MTS2000 radios work fine is a strong indication the Centracom & Trunked system is working properly.
I'm fairly familiar with Centracom operation, but my knowledge doesn't run so deep as to say how the status bits work with the various patch, multiselect & stacking options. XMO & possibly a couple of others might be able to tell you more in that regard, but it ultimately sounds like a system support question.
Regardless, it does sound like Johnson is on the hook to make their radio work properly.
Todd
I'm fairly familiar with Centracom operation, but my knowledge doesn't run so deep as to say how the status bits work with the various patch, multiselect & stacking options. XMO & possibly a couple of others might be able to tell you more in that regard, but it ultimately sounds like a system support question.
Regardless, it does sound like Johnson is on the hook to make their radio work properly.
Todd
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Welcome to the /\/\achine.
I realize that there are no trunked 'pagers', that the trunked radios do nothing with the tones, and that the purpose is to send an audible alert to the trunked radio users.
The problem is you said Smartzone when you really are Smartnet. If you do upgrade to Smartzone and your console becomes part of the system in the usual way, i.e. CEB > Embassy > TeNSr > ZC, I think you are going to have to change the way you are doing this at that time.
In a Smartnet system the console interconnects to the trunked system with TBIMS. In CCII the BIM cards generate the paging, hence it is possible to send paging tones to a trunked system.
In Smartzone the console connects to the Smartzone network [digital audio switch] through AMB interface cards - there are no TBIMS - hence there is nothing in the console that can generate two tone paging to a trunked talkgroup.
The problem is you said Smartzone when you really are Smartnet. If you do upgrade to Smartzone and your console becomes part of the system in the usual way, i.e. CEB > Embassy > TeNSr > ZC, I think you are going to have to change the way you are doing this at that time.
In a Smartnet system the console interconnects to the trunked system with TBIMS. In CCII the BIM cards generate the paging, hence it is possible to send paging tones to a trunked system.
In Smartzone the console connects to the Smartzone network [digital audio switch] through AMB interface cards - there are no TBIMS - hence there is nothing in the console that can generate two tone paging to a trunked talkgroup.
I think XMO is coorect here.
Please be very aware, when you go to SmartZone you will NOT be able to send your 2-tone pages over talkgroups if this is a full blown CC Gold Elite console interfaced to the Embasy. The tone encoding for 2-tone and DTMF hapens in the BIM, TBIM in a conventional/SmartNet system. That will be lost in a SmartZone system (unless you use a BIM and a standalone base such as a tone remote consolette).
Please be very aware, when you go to SmartZone you will NOT be able to send your 2-tone pages over talkgroups if this is a full blown CC Gold Elite console interfaced to the Embasy. The tone encoding for 2-tone and DTMF hapens in the BIM, TBIM in a conventional/SmartNet system. That will be lost in a SmartZone system (unless you use a BIM and a standalone base such as a tone remote consolette).
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thebigphish
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:10 pm
- What radios do you own?: AM/FM
Re: Centracom Gold stacking pages effects trunking talk grou
Were in the same boat, fighting the same battle here....except we have all Pro series radios on an LTR system. I feel your pain. If i get the chance, i will get you the details of what we did ...radiodude wrote: Basically no one sends 2-tone pages on a smartnet sysem, There are no trunking two-tone pagers. So the senerio we are using is unique.
There are no control stations as in a Conventioal system. In a conventional system you would stack the pages, the different freqs would tone out and and voice would be given, but in this secerio these are talk groups.