Folks could honestly use as many opinions on this as possible; our department had a vendor walk-thru yesterday in regards to replacing our console and infrastructure. Our M dealer is also a Z dealer and we will be getting quotes for a 1-position MCC5500 and a 1-position Zetron 4000 series. Our system is basic 1 conventional voted (3 reciever) system 460.xxx mgz, and a few other conventional repeaterized conventional admin and mutual aid channels.
We really had no "must haves" other than have the capability to monitor/use 5 channels in the console, and we need the MDC decode/emergency functionality. We also need the ability to expand easily to a second operator position if/when needed. What we have now is a 1-position CC2. The furniture is huge and in need of replacement/redesign do make the dispatcher more comfortable and to give better ergonomics and feild of view of the front window (which we don't have now.
The m dealer billed the MCC5500 as a "cadilac" and the Zetron 4000 series as a "chevy" now i know from personal experience with Zetron that most of their stuff is of high quality and reliable. The dealer is going to give us a quote for a CRT based 4000 series and a push button/led (money saver) version; as well as a quote for the MCC5500. What I am looking for is pros/cons to each system and any "must haves" that we should spend the money on now to make the dispatchers job easier, and any commonly forgotten things that some of you may have ran into after you may have purchased a console. I know nothing about the MCC5500 system it is too new and very few departments in my area have them, I did speak to one tech that said that the mcc's are nice but cam be very "flaky" at times and are a bit overpriced,He said that the MCC's are built for motorola by the canadian firm CML, he liked the Zetron 4000 series CRT version, for its capability, ease of use, price, and feature set, the only close to negative comment on the Zetron was that the Zetron GUI (crt version) was a little "basic"
Anybody that can chime in and give an opinion would be helping a great deal, considering that we will have to live with this purchase for 15-years or more.
thanks
MCC5500 VS ZETRON 4000 SERIES
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Radiogeek97
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1. I think the analogy is wrong: the M is an Austin Healey (great when it runs but don't take it out in the rain) while the Z is an F-250 (can do and will do).
2. I prefer the button and LED to the CRT console, of any make.
3. For a single position console the Series 4000 may be overkill; the 4010 (desktop or rack mount) will work just fine. The 4010 contains the TRC cards in the unit, while the Series 4000 uses a central electronics bank. A second 4010 can be paralleled if need, but over two positions, the Series 4000 is easier to tame.
2. I prefer the button and LED to the CRT console, of any make.
3. For a single position console the Series 4000 may be overkill; the 4010 (desktop or rack mount) will work just fine. The 4010 contains the TRC cards in the unit, while the Series 4000 uses a central electronics bank. A second 4010 can be paralleled if need, but over two positions, the Series 4000 is easier to tame.
I second the 4010 for a single position, with possibilty of a second position.
We have 11 in service in 6 seperate dispatch centers. One word "reliable". The only glitch on them is no de-empasis on paging tones (we resolve using our own mod to the dual channel card).
Other than that it is a great machine. For the price you can go ahead with the second console now AND buy a complete spare, and still be cheaper than the others.
If you go with the others, make sure you buy a full spares kit up front (that mean full boards, not just a few components).
We have 11 in service in 6 seperate dispatch centers. One word "reliable". The only glitch on them is no de-empasis on paging tones (we resolve using our own mod to the dual channel card).
Other than that it is a great machine. For the price you can go ahead with the second console now AND buy a complete spare, and still be cheaper than the others.
If you go with the others, make sure you buy a full spares kit up front (that mean full boards, not just a few components).
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repeaters-r-us
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consoles
I never played with the 5500 but I had a couple of tech say not very nice things about it. I have some zetron 4217 LCD screen systems out there as well as a few push button ones. Personally, I think the push button type is the best way to go. Simple, easy, reliable. Don't buy more bells and whistles than you will actually use.
I have the 4000 and the 4010's out there running for years without a problem. I suggest the 4010 in either a rackmount or desk top configuation. The 4010 is totally self contained. I just can't see going to a unit with a separate electronics bank for ONE posistion and maybe two.
The Z maybe a little limited on FSK/MDC funtionallity, but how many people really use more than PTT ID and Emergency ID?
Well, anyway, I have both, one desktop and one rack mount instock if you need them.
Good Luck
I have the 4000 and the 4010's out there running for years without a problem. I suggest the 4010 in either a rackmount or desk top configuation. The 4010 is totally self contained. I just can't see going to a unit with a separate electronics bank for ONE posistion and maybe two.
The Z maybe a little limited on FSK/MDC funtionallity, but how many people really use more than PTT ID and Emergency ID?
Well, anyway, I have both, one desktop and one rack mount instock if you need them.
Good Luck
I haven't had any experience with either. I have heard horror stories of support on CML products. If there is a bug, and there has and continues to be with Commnand Stars around here, CML's response is they built it to Motorola's spec and any fixes need to be initiated by an order $$$ from Motorola. Motorola points back to bug in CML software. Lots of finger pointing-no resolution, years have gone by.
CML is in Canada and support/FRUs come from their plant. Slow and customs hassles.
If Motorola and CML end up n a lovers spat like Motorola and Gai-Tronics (formerly Instrument Associates), support can literally evaporate like it did on Command Plus while they duke it out in court.--and it didn't get any better after they finally settled.
MDC is propietary to Motorola, so I'm not sure how well Zetron can support it. Also, maybe I just get the wrong people at Zetron, but they do seem to be a bit arrogant.
As an alternative, you may want to look at upgrading your CCII to a Gold Elite. Motorola's official stance is that they only sell gold elite for trunked--but it is still being manufactured and supported. If your dealer is on the ball and experienced, he should be able to source everything he needs through the "above pricebook" dealer program. I upgraded one of the first CCII sold in 1984 to a gold elite two years ago.--went very smooth and easy. This should provide a susbstantial savings in labor and your existing Buttons & Leds can be operated in parallel with the gold elite position--all with the same CEB. May allievate some migration/down time issues. The gold elite is widely used in PSAP dispatch applications and it would be my opinion that it will be supported for at least 15 years. When you step back and look at it, my customer got 20 years out of his original purchase and will probably get another 15 out of the upgrade. Still a state of the art console and a 35 year service life. Even if they are twice the money, the per year cost over its life expectancy is pretty hard to beat. This is kind of product that made Motorola great---I can't understand why they decided to get out and I don't think they realize what this is going to cost them.
CML is in Canada and support/FRUs come from their plant. Slow and customs hassles.
If Motorola and CML end up n a lovers spat like Motorola and Gai-Tronics (formerly Instrument Associates), support can literally evaporate like it did on Command Plus while they duke it out in court.--and it didn't get any better after they finally settled.
MDC is propietary to Motorola, so I'm not sure how well Zetron can support it. Also, maybe I just get the wrong people at Zetron, but they do seem to be a bit arrogant.
As an alternative, you may want to look at upgrading your CCII to a Gold Elite. Motorola's official stance is that they only sell gold elite for trunked--but it is still being manufactured and supported. If your dealer is on the ball and experienced, he should be able to source everything he needs through the "above pricebook" dealer program. I upgraded one of the first CCII sold in 1984 to a gold elite two years ago.--went very smooth and easy. This should provide a susbstantial savings in labor and your existing Buttons & Leds can be operated in parallel with the gold elite position--all with the same CEB. May allievate some migration/down time issues. The gold elite is widely used in PSAP dispatch applications and it would be my opinion that it will be supported for at least 15 years. When you step back and look at it, my customer got 20 years out of his original purchase and will probably get another 15 out of the upgrade. Still a state of the art console and a 35 year service life. Even if they are twice the money, the per year cost over its life expectancy is pretty hard to beat. This is kind of product that made Motorola great---I can't understand why they decided to get out and I don't think they realize what this is going to cost them.
Hello,
I'll cast my vote for the Zetron Line. They can handle the MDC ID and emergency call. There customer service is A+, and I have never had any problems with there staff. They have even helped with custom mods to do some custom things and they don't flip out if you send in a board with mods on them, as a matter of fact when I took the training class they actually said they expect to see them and will only unmodify it if they believe that was the cause of a problem. Which way you decide to go either the 4000 series or 4010 will work well and comes down to a dollars and cents issue.
Gary
I'll cast my vote for the Zetron Line. They can handle the MDC ID and emergency call. There customer service is A+, and I have never had any problems with there staff. They have even helped with custom mods to do some custom things and they don't flip out if you send in a board with mods on them, as a matter of fact when I took the training class they actually said they expect to see them and will only unmodify it if they believe that was the cause of a problem. Which way you decide to go either the 4000 series or 4010 will work well and comes down to a dollars and cents issue.
Gary
Console
I also have to vote for the Zetron 4010 for your application. We have had 3 4010's in service for at least 8 years and have had no problem with them. You may need a button expansion panel if you have many preprogramed page keys.
The only thing the 4000 can do for us that the 4010 cannot is MDC alaising where a MDC id can be converted to a text display. IE radio id 1234 displays as Engine1. I think that feature is only avaiable on touch screen versions and I to am a "Button and LED person"
The only down side I see to using 1 console for more than a few channels is that all the "Unselected" frequencys receive audio is summed into 1 speaker. Thats why we have 3 4010's and use having some overlaping channels for backup.
Zetron does also make a Receiver panel that could be used to cure the problem.
The only thing the 4000 can do for us that the 4010 cannot is MDC alaising where a MDC id can be converted to a text display. IE radio id 1234 displays as Engine1. I think that feature is only avaiable on touch screen versions and I to am a "Button and LED person"
The only down side I see to using 1 console for more than a few channels is that all the "Unselected" frequencys receive audio is summed into 1 speaker. Thats why we have 3 4010's and use having some overlaping channels for backup.
Zetron does also make a Receiver panel that could be used to cure the problem.
Cause Motorola said so that's why
If all you need to do is read MDC, consider designing a spot for a Cimarron box. They will handle alias-lists (up to 4,000 aliases), buffer something like the last two dozen decodes, will recognize emergencies, and can be programmed to trip an external relay on emergency decodes for lights, buzzers or the like.
consoles
RKG
Do you know if the Cimarron has an RS-232 output that could be connected to an external device to log or print the decoded MDC?
That would be the next step for us, to be able to add the decoded MDC data to the Logging Recorder
Do you know if the Cimarron has an RS-232 output that could be connected to an external device to log or print the decoded MDC?
That would be the next step for us, to be able to add the decoded MDC data to the Logging Recorder
Cause Motorola said so that's why
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Radiogeek97
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guys
thanks for the valued opinions, origionally the 4010 was proposed as the "cheap" way of getting a new console our salesperson had mensioned that it was "limited" compared to the 4000 series but was a value compared to an MCC5500. How many channels can the 4010 support?, and can it do console patch and the other basic "console stuff" out of the box?
One of you fellas mensioned upgrading the CC2 to a gold elite, any idea what somthing like that costs? the salesperson looked at the cards in the card cage, and they appear to be "version a's" The moto salesperson said that basically all we could salvage is the card cage??? When you said that the gold elite position can be operated in parallel to the existing one, does this mean that after the upgrade you will basically have 2 positions? What would one have to look at in order to determine if what we have is upgradeable? thanks for the help
thanks for the valued opinions, origionally the 4010 was proposed as the "cheap" way of getting a new console our salesperson had mensioned that it was "limited" compared to the 4000 series but was a value compared to an MCC5500. How many channels can the 4010 support?, and can it do console patch and the other basic "console stuff" out of the box?
One of you fellas mensioned upgrading the CC2 to a gold elite, any idea what somthing like that costs? the salesperson looked at the cards in the card cage, and they appear to be "version a's" The moto salesperson said that basically all we could salvage is the card cage??? When you said that the gold elite position can be operated in parallel to the existing one, does this mean that after the upgrade you will basically have 2 positions? What would one have to look at in order to determine if what we have is upgradeable? thanks for the help
console
The 4010 can handle 12 channels but keep in mind that the unselected channels all route receive audio to 1 speaker. It kind of makes it hard to tell what channel is active.
Also the 4010 can patch 2 radio channels together if that is what you are asking but it is a VOX patch so the first word of the conversation may get lost in the Vox and keyup delays.
Take a look at http://www.zetron.com there is plenty of info there, if you need more answers give them a call they always answered my questions
Also the 4010 can patch 2 radio channels together if that is what you are asking but it is a VOX patch so the first word of the conversation may get lost in the Vox and keyup delays.
Take a look at http://www.zetron.com there is plenty of info there, if you need more answers give them a call they always answered my questions
Cause Motorola said so that's why
That's true. Some voice will be chopped, but now they have a tone remote adapter card with built in voice delay. This helps quite a bit. Allows tha base/repeater to key up before passing the voice. I think that it is a 1/2 second voice delay.Also the 4010 can patch 2 radio channels together if that is what you are asking but it is a VOX patch so the first word of the conversation may get lost in the Vox and keyup delays.
Alan writes:
" That's true. Some voice will be chopped, but now they have a tone remote adapter card with built in voice delay. This helps quite a bit. Allows tha base/repeater to key up before passing the voice. I think that it is a 1/2 second voice delay."
That is a super GREAT idea, thatal fix most dispatchers who talk before keying.
" That's true. Some voice will be chopped, but now they have a tone remote adapter card with built in voice delay. This helps quite a bit. Allows tha base/repeater to key up before passing the voice. I think that it is a 1/2 second voice delay."
That is a super GREAT idea, thatal fix most dispatchers who talk before keying.
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Radiogeek97
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thanks
I called zetron and asked for all their liturature on both series, Is there a way of getting the unselect audio to be handled differently? I think massfd mensioned a "reciever pannel" any experience about those and how they work?
Also anybody that can chime in on the "upgradeability" of the CC2 i would like to explore that possibilityas well, I have access to the equipment and can get any info that you folks may ask for.
thanks again!!! Experiences of the end user are soo much more valueable than cooked up promotional sales literature.
I called zetron and asked for all their liturature on both series, Is there a way of getting the unselect audio to be handled differently? I think massfd mensioned a "reciever pannel" any experience about those and how they work?
Also anybody that can chime in on the "upgradeability" of the CC2 i would like to explore that possibilityas well, I have access to the equipment and can get any info that you folks may ask for.
thanks again!!! Experiences of the end user are soo much more valueable than cooked up promotional sales literature.
1. The speaker panel that was mentioned preserves audio on a one-line-per-one-speaker basis, and fits in a rack mount. Can be mounted above a 4010R, but it harder to integrate into a 4010D.
2. You can always tell which unselected line has opened by looking at the "rx'd" LED next to the Select button for that line. The primary advantage of the speaker panel is individual AF gain pot knobs for each line (versus adjusting the comparative AF gain for each line via the keypad); the speakers are so close together that spatial differentiation isn't effective for channel identification.
3. In theory, you can run multiple 4010s. In practice, however, what you are doing is the same as running multiple TRC remotes in parallel over the same lines, and keeping the audio balanced can be a chore. With the Series 4000, the CEB is a single bank of remote cards, and all of the console positions are essentially controllers of that bank.
2. You can always tell which unselected line has opened by looking at the "rx'd" LED next to the Select button for that line. The primary advantage of the speaker panel is individual AF gain pot knobs for each line (versus adjusting the comparative AF gain for each line via the keypad); the speakers are so close together that spatial differentiation isn't effective for channel identification.
3. In theory, you can run multiple 4010s. In practice, however, what you are doing is the same as running multiple TRC remotes in parallel over the same lines, and keeping the audio balanced can be a chore. With the Series 4000, the CEB is a single bank of remote cards, and all of the console positions are essentially controllers of that bank.
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Radiogeek97
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radiomidwest
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The 4010 does all that. with the aux I/O card you can control a voter and display the voted/failed indicators. green for voted and red for failed. Does have recorder outputs.
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Radiogeek97
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