I am looking for reports of experience with large UPS units. Answers can be fairly simple or detailed as appropriate.
Make, model, size, time in service , reliability of operation, local service availability, experience with service provider, etc.
For example, our situation is as follows:
Toshiba, 4000 series, 50 KVA, full time inverter, 10 years old, excellent operation, no failures until recently, cool clean & quiet, NO local service availability, current contract with Eaton / Powerware - very poor response, can't find parts, etc.
PSAP UPS RECOMMENDATIONS
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N4DES
- was KS4VT
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We have almost 20 Best/Powerware UPS systems in use ranging in size
from 18 to 40KVA. Minimal issues as long as we replace the batteries every 3 years and they don't get a major lightning strike. They have been in service since 2001.
Decent local support from my vendor as in his contract he is required to keep a crash kit on hand for all of the model units.
from 18 to 40KVA. Minimal issues as long as we replace the batteries every 3 years and they don't get a major lightning strike. They have been in service since 2001.
Decent local support from my vendor as in his contract he is required to keep a crash kit on hand for all of the model units.
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psapengineer
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:00 am
UPS for PSAP
We have a Mitsubishi 2033 in our PSAP. It's a 30KVA 3 Phase unit and we've had more than 5 years of service with no interruption or failure. Its a 360VDC battery and we use the 2033 version that has an input filter. not the (I think it is C) version without the input filter. Bob
I can't recommend a specfic vendor but I want to reinforce the importance of adequate local maintenance support. I would suggest finding good local maintenance organizations with experience on large UPS units and see what units they recommend and support. Then get a service contract for periodic maintenance and local parts availability.
I was called in as a consultant to a PSAP after they had a major fire that started in one of the UPS units. There had been construction work done in the building some time prior to the incident and the UPS air filters were clogged with concrete dust. It overheated and protection systems failed resulting in a serious fire.
The UPS manufacturer provided good immediate phone support and flew in people and repair parts but they were on the opposite side of the country. Emergency bypass of the UPS system to get power back to the PSAP after the smoke cleared was done with the assistance of the local electric utility.
The incident investigation found that poor environmental control of the UPS area and lack of adequate preventative maintenance was the root cause.
I was called in as a consultant to a PSAP after they had a major fire that started in one of the UPS units. There had been construction work done in the building some time prior to the incident and the UPS air filters were clogged with concrete dust. It overheated and protection systems failed resulting in a serious fire.
The UPS manufacturer provided good immediate phone support and flew in people and repair parts but they were on the opposite side of the country. Emergency bypass of the UPS system to get power back to the PSAP after the smoke cleared was done with the assistance of the local electric utility.
The incident investigation found that poor environmental control of the UPS area and lack of adequate preventative maintenance was the root cause.
UPS
We have a Liebert in our Dispatch Center. It's a 15KVA 3 Phase unit and we've had more than 12 years of service with only a fan failure. Its a 230VDC battery and has input and output filters. It's the online AC to DC back to AC type and with both input and output filters is totaly isolated from the utility.
It has a Static transfer switch that will bypass the UPS to line if overloaded, ask me how I know. Alright I give, did you ever have anyone plug a floor waxer into a UPS outlet in your dispatch office?
The fan failure did not shut it down as there are 3 fans in the unit, it just generated a warning said call for service.
The only warning I have is consult both the UPS and GenSet manfacturers to make sure they are compatable. I have found that the GenSet needs to be sized 75% larger than the UPS to ensure that they will play nice together. Also the Transfer Switch should have the "inphase Transfer" option or you may find you trip the UPS input breaker on retransfer.
It's a large unit (about 6'w 6'h 2 1/2'd) and weighs at least 2000 lbs with batterys. Also generates a bit of heat so plan your location carefully.
It has a Static transfer switch that will bypass the UPS to line if overloaded, ask me how I know. Alright I give, did you ever have anyone plug a floor waxer into a UPS outlet in your dispatch office?
The fan failure did not shut it down as there are 3 fans in the unit, it just generated a warning said call for service.
The only warning I have is consult both the UPS and GenSet manfacturers to make sure they are compatable. I have found that the GenSet needs to be sized 75% larger than the UPS to ensure that they will play nice together. Also the Transfer Switch should have the "inphase Transfer" option or you may find you trip the UPS input breaker on retransfer.
It's a large unit (about 6'w 6'h 2 1/2'd) and weighs at least 2000 lbs with batterys. Also generates a bit of heat so plan your location carefully.
Cause Motorola said so that's why
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psapengineer
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:00 am
GenSet
And, since someone mentioned GenSet:
Our 2033 series Mitsubishi has an input that can be connected to the GenSet; it reduces the charge current (demand on the GenSet) when it sees a contact closure indicating that the PSAP isn't on utility power.
Our 2033 series Mitsubishi has an input that can be connected to the GenSet; it reduces the charge current (demand on the GenSet) when it sees a contact closure indicating that the PSAP isn't on utility power.
UPS
The Liebert has the capility to do a "slow walkin" of the DC supply to avoid a surge load on the generator but it still needs to be able to draw full load as a reduction in DC current would discharge the batterys.
Liebert also needs good frequency regulation on the GenSet as it attempts to keep sync with the input incase it needs to go to bypass mode in the event of an overload or UPS failure. If the load is matched to the UPS this should not be a problem but the UPS does complain about UPS out of sync with input power.
Our 100 KW Kohler GenSet does ok with the UPS till the Aircond system starts up. The 10HP motor load drops the gen frequency for a split second till the gen govoner responds to the load then all is well again till the AC cycles off. Basicly it only happens a few times an hour and has no effect on the UPS output at all, it only reports it as a problem because it could not transfer the load to bypass during these split second events.
Liebert also needs good frequency regulation on the GenSet as it attempts to keep sync with the input incase it needs to go to bypass mode in the event of an overload or UPS failure. If the load is matched to the UPS this should not be a problem but the UPS does complain about UPS out of sync with input power.
Our 100 KW Kohler GenSet does ok with the UPS till the Aircond system starts up. The 10HP motor load drops the gen frequency for a split second till the gen govoner responds to the load then all is well again till the AC cycles off. Basicly it only happens a few times an hour and has no effect on the UPS output at all, it only reports it as a problem because it could not transfer the load to bypass during these split second events.
Cause Motorola said so that's why
Re: UPS
While we have brought up the issue of generators, here is some points that not many people think about, know about or have any idea what to do about.
First and foremost, if your going to have a large UPS on a generator, make sure your generator has an electronic govenor. The isochronous governor, as most in the generator world call the electronic govenor, is a very fast reacting speed control for the generator. If you have anything that is frequency sensitive for a load, it is imperitive that this type of governor be used. It reacts extreemly fast tp load changes and controls the engine speed to keep the generator output right on 60 cycles.
Don't get me wrong and think that you won't see a slight dip in speed when you slam a load to the generator. You will see the momentary dip, but it is right back there before you can bat an eye. It is almost amaizing to watch it work with heavy load changes.
The next issue is just how the control electronics is set up on the UPS. There should be settings for the frequency window. Set this to the largest plus and minus that the control will let you go. Normally this is only like .5 cycles or if your lucky maybe even +/- 1 cycle. Anyway, open this up to what ever it will let you go to. This way the slight changes in the generator speed won't keep tripping out the UPS.
Look at the voltage thet you normally have and try to set the generator voltage to the same under the same load. This may take some playing around the next time your running on your generator.
I tread softly on this next point as I try not to tick off any generator company. However, there is some of them that just have a piece of :o for a voltage regulator. You can set it with no load, then slowly put the load on and when your done, the voltage has dropped a good deal.
They also seem to be the same company that doesn't like to use parts that you can get at the local auto store. I hate a company where I can't get replacement radiator hoses, starter motors, filters and the like.
I use to work at Verizon Wireless. We stopped buying one brand of generators because of this last issue. Even had the national sales manager come visit me and ask why we no longer buy that brand. Told him real simply that their regional warehouse full of parts does me no good in the middle of a storm and the main generator has failed from a blown radiator hose. Duct tape only works so good, but is a poor repair for a leaking hose. Why can't you build your generators with parts that I can get locally?
Told him your generator might cost less than the others, but I can't get parts and the voltage regulator stinks. Give me a good reason why I should use your generators. He said they cost less. Told him again that the cost is a pile more than what the generator costs if it doesn't run, or runs poorly with changing load.
Make sure you have a good generator for the dispatch center and don't always pick the low cost one. It will end up costing you much much more in the long run.
Jim
First and foremost, if your going to have a large UPS on a generator, make sure your generator has an electronic govenor. The isochronous governor, as most in the generator world call the electronic govenor, is a very fast reacting speed control for the generator. If you have anything that is frequency sensitive for a load, it is imperitive that this type of governor be used. It reacts extreemly fast tp load changes and controls the engine speed to keep the generator output right on 60 cycles.
Don't get me wrong and think that you won't see a slight dip in speed when you slam a load to the generator. You will see the momentary dip, but it is right back there before you can bat an eye. It is almost amaizing to watch it work with heavy load changes.
The next issue is just how the control electronics is set up on the UPS. There should be settings for the frequency window. Set this to the largest plus and minus that the control will let you go. Normally this is only like .5 cycles or if your lucky maybe even +/- 1 cycle. Anyway, open this up to what ever it will let you go to. This way the slight changes in the generator speed won't keep tripping out the UPS.
Look at the voltage thet you normally have and try to set the generator voltage to the same under the same load. This may take some playing around the next time your running on your generator.
I tread softly on this next point as I try not to tick off any generator company. However, there is some of them that just have a piece of :o for a voltage regulator. You can set it with no load, then slowly put the load on and when your done, the voltage has dropped a good deal.
They also seem to be the same company that doesn't like to use parts that you can get at the local auto store. I hate a company where I can't get replacement radiator hoses, starter motors, filters and the like.
I use to work at Verizon Wireless. We stopped buying one brand of generators because of this last issue. Even had the national sales manager come visit me and ask why we no longer buy that brand. Told him real simply that their regional warehouse full of parts does me no good in the middle of a storm and the main generator has failed from a blown radiator hose. Duct tape only works so good, but is a poor repair for a leaking hose. Why can't you build your generators with parts that I can get locally?
Told him your generator might cost less than the others, but I can't get parts and the voltage regulator stinks. Give me a good reason why I should use your generators. He said they cost less. Told him again that the cost is a pile more than what the generator costs if it doesn't run, or runs poorly with changing load.
Make sure you have a good generator for the dispatch center and don't always pick the low cost one. It will end up costing you much much more in the long run.
Jim
PSAP Generator Discussion
How many hours of battery run time for the UPS do your PSAPs demand?
One customer likes 12 hours, despite the generator. If the genny fails to start, you need time to come and push the reset button, or arrange a mobile genny. The size of the battery plant usually freaks out the UPS PM technician, just before he tells me that he won't test that large a battery as part of the standard PM. I design in a separate battery charger to augment the UPS internal one so that after a discharge, we can still restore the battery to full charge within 8 to 12 hours. This has the added benefit of DC and input power redundancy. If the main input transformer or CB fails (120/208V) for all the AC loads, UPS included, we can run the UPS from the battery charger indefinitely. The battery charger is fed from 480V (or 600V in Canadian systems). So even if the UPS rejects the generator source as being "out of tolerance", the battery charger has the last laugh to supply bulk input power.
Be weary of the battery the UPS vendor is proposing! They might package a really cheap battery to provide the lowest price and win the bid. Select the battery plant with care!
I've built 30 kVA UPS from Powerware (example model 9330) for Motorola SmartZone systems. But after a few rounds of this, I've found Motorola seriously overstates their equipment VA. For the next switch I'm thinking of a -48V inverter based 10 kW system. And it is inherently redundant with parallel inverter modules, and N+1. Easily expandable. Look at http://www.pylonelectronics.com/power/i ... i3300.html for a nice size 3300 VA module to build on. No need for 3 phase for the switch and LAN equipment. So I can build the output 120/240 instead. No need for 240V even, but it is easy to supply two inverter shelves that are 180° out of phase. Supplying recitifers and inverters is a bit more expensive, but considering the cost of redundancy and smaller size of the 10 kW system, and the fact that I have to supply -48VDC for the fibre nodes, channel banks, DACS and other telecom equipment anyway, it starts to make sense.
If they want to sell you a 30 kVA UPS which is expandable later to 40 kVA (as an example), this might not be a HARDWARE upgrade at all. They probably sell you 40 kVA hardware and put firmware "handcuffs" on it. Tell them that if you are paying for the hardware, you don't want it artificially restricted from supplying its full output.
One neat feature that I like to use on the UPS is their SNMP/Web interfaces. Powerwave (as an example) has done a great job in this regard. You can have the switch techs plug in heaters and take the UPS to the limit, put the load on battery while you watch the whole thing from a few hundred miles away on your desktop PC over the internal OSS WAN. It even has a nice Java applet that graphs the whole event. All you have to do is a screen copy, or event log dump and there is your test record! Similarly, newer -48V power plant vendors have great SNMP/WEB interfaces and automation, including battery plant monitoring. Many plants will store discharge curves for you or send emails if there is trouble. I LAMENT that this sort of automation (SNMP and HTTP) is not yet available from ANY generator vendor that I know of for smaller sized (<100 kW) machines. They do have LONWORKS, MODBUS or other building automation system controllers, but not Ethernet/SNMP. The ATS and GENERATOR controllers don't talk to each other! WAKE UP GENERATOR MANUFACTURERS!
There is my 2 cents to this thread for debate. Comments appreciated!
RFDude
One customer likes 12 hours, despite the generator. If the genny fails to start, you need time to come and push the reset button, or arrange a mobile genny. The size of the battery plant usually freaks out the UPS PM technician, just before he tells me that he won't test that large a battery as part of the standard PM. I design in a separate battery charger to augment the UPS internal one so that after a discharge, we can still restore the battery to full charge within 8 to 12 hours. This has the added benefit of DC and input power redundancy. If the main input transformer or CB fails (120/208V) for all the AC loads, UPS included, we can run the UPS from the battery charger indefinitely. The battery charger is fed from 480V (or 600V in Canadian systems). So even if the UPS rejects the generator source as being "out of tolerance", the battery charger has the last laugh to supply bulk input power.
Be weary of the battery the UPS vendor is proposing! They might package a really cheap battery to provide the lowest price and win the bid. Select the battery plant with care!
I've built 30 kVA UPS from Powerware (example model 9330) for Motorola SmartZone systems. But after a few rounds of this, I've found Motorola seriously overstates their equipment VA. For the next switch I'm thinking of a -48V inverter based 10 kW system. And it is inherently redundant with parallel inverter modules, and N+1. Easily expandable. Look at http://www.pylonelectronics.com/power/i ... i3300.html for a nice size 3300 VA module to build on. No need for 3 phase for the switch and LAN equipment. So I can build the output 120/240 instead. No need for 240V even, but it is easy to supply two inverter shelves that are 180° out of phase. Supplying recitifers and inverters is a bit more expensive, but considering the cost of redundancy and smaller size of the 10 kW system, and the fact that I have to supply -48VDC for the fibre nodes, channel banks, DACS and other telecom equipment anyway, it starts to make sense.
If they want to sell you a 30 kVA UPS which is expandable later to 40 kVA (as an example), this might not be a HARDWARE upgrade at all. They probably sell you 40 kVA hardware and put firmware "handcuffs" on it. Tell them that if you are paying for the hardware, you don't want it artificially restricted from supplying its full output.
One neat feature that I like to use on the UPS is their SNMP/Web interfaces. Powerwave (as an example) has done a great job in this regard. You can have the switch techs plug in heaters and take the UPS to the limit, put the load on battery while you watch the whole thing from a few hundred miles away on your desktop PC over the internal OSS WAN. It even has a nice Java applet that graphs the whole event. All you have to do is a screen copy, or event log dump and there is your test record! Similarly, newer -48V power plant vendors have great SNMP/WEB interfaces and automation, including battery plant monitoring. Many plants will store discharge curves for you or send emails if there is trouble. I LAMENT that this sort of automation (SNMP and HTTP) is not yet available from ANY generator vendor that I know of for smaller sized (<100 kW) machines. They do have LONWORKS, MODBUS or other building automation system controllers, but not Ethernet/SNMP. The ATS and GENERATOR controllers don't talk to each other! WAKE UP GENERATOR MANUFACTURERS!
There is my 2 cents to this thread for debate. Comments appreciated!
RFDude