AAR Astro Spectra in use

GP-38 · Post by **GP-38** » Tue May 31, 2005 1:21 am

Thought some of you might find this interesting. We had a Norfolk Southern SD-60 motor in our hauler consist over the weekend. Talk about mind-boggling...you walk into the front door expecting to see two conductor's seats, and you see a control stand in front of you! Across the cab, where the stand should be, are two conductor's seats! I had forgotten they run long hood as forward standard. Anyway, this one was isolated and everything, including radio, was shut off. Still, it's an Astro. Also note the famous NS dual band Red Hot Mary/HOTD.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Tue May 31, 2005 6:09 am

<< DROOL >>

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:05 am

I saw one in a similar setup. This radio was not removable like the previous Spectra RRs they were using. This one is control head only, the rest mounted who knows where as the cable goes through the floor and disappears. This was on an NS line near Pittsburgh.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Tue May 31, 2005 10:31 pm

TRNK=Trunking?

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:31 am

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:33 pm

What flavour of trunking do these things do?

SD70MAC · Post by **SD70MAC** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:46 pm

What is the unit number it sounds like an SD60 that was ordered around the time of the merger of the Southern rwy and the Norfkolk and Western to make NS. This unit is bi-directional that is the reason for the control stand being on that side. On long back up moves you learn to HATE desk top controls.
I believe that the Astro Spectra RR is flash upgradable to apco 25 trunking and 182 channels.

Post by Pj » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:16 pm

The AAR Astro Spectra is like the rest of them: Flashable. However, it is my understanding that it is not Astro25 9600 cabable (ie XTL/Spectra+).

The A/D button is the Analog/Digital switch. Yup, kinda cool when you have push button astro

The only other operational difference, is if you want to use the AAR narrowband channels, you need to enter 6 digits instead of the usual 4. When using the standard AAR channels, the radio will still recongize the 4 digits as the RR spectra does now.

PDF of the Astro Clean Cab:
http://www.motorola.com/governmentanden ... ochure.pdf

PDF on how to use the Railroad Spectra:
http://www.motorola.com/governmentanden ... _radio.pdf

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:27 pm

I wonder if these are regular mid power or high power drawers mounted somewhere with special programming and the RR control head or if these are just remote heads and the radio is mounted elsewhere. I don't know where it would be, but it certainly couldn't be usable if it was the whole Spectra RR and not just a drawer somewhere.

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:57 pm

I thought all of the NS bi-directional locos had DUAL control stands and aren't they still specing the stands vs desk setups?

Of course the ex-conrail stuff is setup the "normal" way.

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:33 pm

So, where I live, there's a VHF Type II SmartZone ASTRO trunking system. In theory, I could program up a RR Astro Spectra for this?

That'd be very cool. Hamsexy even

Post by Pj » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:38 pm

The Railroad Spectra and the Astro Railroad spectra are 1 piece units in their own special self contained case. They use special firmware and their own RSS/CPS for programming.

The RF deck is pretty much the same as the 45watt counterparts. Most have been ordered as "Astro Ready". These radios also do not scan, and there are no provisions in the radio to enable it.

n7maq · Post by **n7maq** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:44 pm

UPRR has a mixed mode Astro system in Portland, OR. I have never heard any analog traffic, only P-25. They also have Astro conventional repeaters from Seattle south to Eugene. They are not using them for road operations, but they do use the trunk system for the intermodal yard, and other yard operations. I don’t monitor the conventional repeaters to often, and the only traffic I have ever heard was the radio techs.

Jim.

SD70MAC · Post by **SD70MAC** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:08 am

The dual control stands died with the Southern RR. All new NS units have the standard AAR control stand.

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:24 am

The Railroad Spectra and the Astro Railroad spectra are 1 piece units in their own special self contained case. They use special firmware and their own RSS/CPS for programming.

The RF deck is pretty much the same as the 45watt counterparts. Most have been ordered as "Astro Ready". These radios also do not scan, and there are no provisions in the radio to enable it.

Yes I am familiar with the standard Spectra RR, and I've also read the .PDFs on the new Astro versions which had pictures showing the same physical form factor. That said, I observed first hand that the only visible controls were the same as the pics at the top of this thread. If you notice to the left and right of the radio control panel, you can see the two screws on each side that hold it in place. It is simply a control head, not the whole radio like the model I own. Now, I know that it is possible to add a 2nd head to the radio through one of the connectors, but with only one control stand (like the others are talking about here right now) where is the actual radio located? We traced the contol cable from the head and it disappears through the floor with most of the control stand's wiring.
At any rate, they obviously mean for these new radios to not be toted from engine to engine like the old ones with the handles like mine.

train_radio_guy · Post by **train_radio_guy** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:44 am

For several years, I was a radio tech on the Illinois Central Railroad, now known as the Canadian National (aka. the Evil Empire - where are the Jedi when you need them?). We received a memo that mentioned the discontinuation of the Spectra series a few years ago, & many questions surfaced as a result. Our Motorola rep. at the time advised us that a "new" replacement was already en-route, and it would easily replace our current model Spectra. The RR Astro Spectra was apparently the model he was referring to back then. There was no mention of 'remoting' the actual radio from the control head, even though it was always possible, even with the older RR Spectra’s. In fact, a remote-head setup would not adhere, to the AAR's specs, for the radio standard already established within the industry, not to mention the nightmare of problems a remote-head setup would introduce. The one-piece design was the clean cab radio's claim to fame. I would be very curious where they would place the radio deck, that it could be considered any safer or easier to maintain, than in the cab of the locomotive. I suspect the NS unit was a custom setup & not the norm. I'll have to ask some of my friends at NS about this one, and I'll pass along their explanation.

-trg,

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"When I die, I would like to go like my grandfather did peacefully in his sleep, not like the passengers of his car kicking & screaming."
- Bill Cheek

streaker · Post by **streaker** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:51 am

From what I can discern, that is the Dash mount type radio. The way it is mounted, the back end of the radio is covered by the control stand. One time I had seen the standard Railroad Spectra radio with a remote control head. I wish I had a camera with me, but I don't normally keep one with me at work. The remote head was only about one inch deep. If I remeber right it was in a UP Locomotive leading a coal train I was on. I did not have the time to figure out how it was setup, and I could not get the remote head to power up.

So I would deduct that a remote setup would be available for the Astro Railroad Spectra, but extremely rare in use, and the pictures above are not a remote head.

GP-38 · Post by **GP-38** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:10 am

SD70MAC, it was the Norfolk Southern 6638. I think I saw a build date in the cab of 1986.

GP-38 · Post by **GP-38** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:19 am

Frick. The back panel had fallen off on the way down from Eugene, too! I only found out it was an Astro after I had replaced the panel. Now I wish I had looked back there again.

Ironically, we had one of the brand new UP SD70ACe locomotives (UP 8320) on the hauler this morning. The cab was pristine! Guess what radio? An old, dusty Spectra in the revived AAR control stand.
~Me

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:25 am

I'm not a train nut, so I can't explain much about the use, type, or anything else about the engine I saw. I could ask my buddy since he works there if it really makes a difference. I do know for a fact that the one I saw was a remote head, because we were in the back of the control stand tracing wires at the time.

So I would deduct that a remote setup would be available for the Astro Railroad Spectra, but extremely rare in use, and the pictures above are not a remote head.

It very well could have been a remote head. Notice the 4 screws around the radio. Those aren't normally there, because the radio is held down with the built-in locks. This was the way the remote head I saw was attached in the hole. Believe me, I was just as surprised when I looked in the back to see only a flat panel with a connector coming out of it and not a whole radio case. There is no difference in appearance from the outside, aside from the 4 screws that is.

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:08 pm

i am installing a normal spectra 100 watt x9000 dual heads into our 1940 ge 80 tonner dual coltrole

train_radio_guy · Post by **train_radio_guy** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:15 pm

The dispatcher radios (sometimes referred to as way-side radios) we used on the IC were essentially the same radios as those used in the locomotives, with a few exceptions:

1. There was no control head. Instead there was a military-grade amphenol connector & umbilical cord, that went from the radio to the radio controller, in the IC's case the controller was made by Safetran. The radio was fastened to a steel tray (painted black), which slid onto a shelf mounted to the radio rack/bay. Two wing nuts held the radio tray in place & locked it down.

2. The 72-volt power supply/inverter was removed from the radio at the factory.

3. Only the first four memory channels of the radio were accessible via the Safetran Controller.

We also discovered that the wide bandwidth of the RR Spectra resulted in some very serious selectivity problems, for our dispatcher radio sites, especially in high RF environments like Chicago. Some of our techs found that installing a Wabco pre-selector (taken from old Wabco Radios), and installed in series with the receiver & and the antenna relay circuit, would offer the necessary selectivity, required to head off the offending interference, without negatively affecting the transmitter. Interestingly enough, the metal pre-selector cavity would just fit inside the RR Spectra's ruggedized housing. It was an ingenious fix, for an annoying problem. The dispatcher radios were actually more expensive than the locomotive radios, despite the missing control head & 72-volt power supply! And yes a control head would readily mount to a dispatcher radio, without any problems, although the need for it never really arose.

- trg,

Post by Pj » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:39 pm

Like anything else motorola, multiple configuations exist.

The "normal" RR Analog/Astro Spectra is still a 1 piece unit. This is done so any swapouts/service can take place without ripping about half of the control stand. Unlock, slide out and go.

Dual remote heads, remote heads and other other configs were available, but not widely used. In this case, you can take out an analog RR spectra and directly drop in an Astro Spectra without any problems or change out of connectors.

So as a general rule of thumb, 99% out there are 1 piece units.

As for the NS...

Most of the the older units (SD40's etc) are/were setup for longhood forward operation. With the retirement of the older stuff, and rebuilds, some have been converted to run the "standard" way. Some still retain dual control stands, but this is pretty rare these days.

NS experimented with the "Desktop" control stand, but apparently they were not too popular with the crews, and all orders since then are built with the standard AAR style stands with the LCD screens.

For those who haven't seen the inside of a loco...

This is the newer AAR control stand in a Norfolk Southern C44-9 Loco:

"Desktop" Control stand in an EMD SD70:

Up close with the railroad spectra:

Got switches?

train_radio_guy · Post by **train_radio_guy** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:44 pm

Ditto on the multiple configurations. Motorola is known for that 'quality' trait, in just about everyone of their endeavors. Versatility was always a good selling point, & a strength in their various product lines.

BTW - Nice cab/head-end locomotive shots. That's one thing I kick myself for - not taking more pictures, while I was working on the railroad. So many missed opportunities.

- trg,

k2hz · Post by **k2hz** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:15 pm

train_radio_guy wrote:We also discovered that the wide bandwidth of the RR Spectra resulted in some very serious selectivity problems, for our dispatcher radio sites, especially in high RF environments like Chicago.

I am glad to see someone confirm that the original RR Spectras did have this desense problem. I had raised the question in the past on some other boards and was told they are a great radio and there is no such problem.

If I put a RR Spectra on my shop antenna it desenses so bad that the dispatcher base 2 miles away cuts in and out. Radio will have about 0.1 uv squelch sensitivity on the service monitor but go "deaf" when hooked to an antenna. Works great with as soon as a bandpass filter is put ahead of it. High band TV channels (CH8 video carrier in my case) seems to be a major problem and a notch filter helps the constant desense but when some high powered high band public safety bases key up everything still noises up and the squelch chops out. Only a 160-162 MHz bandpass filter makes it work normally.

The RR Spectra does not seem to desense quite so bad when used on a locomotive with a low profile, tuned antenna but some desense is still evident in urban areas.

I have a RR Spectra that was made for a rail transit agency that also omitted the control head and had the old standard AAR connector and mounting plate so they could use it with an old style AAR 4 channel control head in the MU cab. (What a waste, paying extra to make a Spectra into a 4 channel radio). As you said, it was just a case of removing the interface board and installing a standard front panel control head and changing the programming to activate the local control. It is now a standard RR Specra except for no external mic connector which would have required another board replacement.

redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:15 pm

For those who haven't seen the inside of a loco...

Whats that handle-looking thing hanging off the LCD screen in the first pic? I saw one of those lying on the stand in the engine I looked at. Now that I see this engine has it too i'm curious.

Post by Pj » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:29 pm

Thats the reverser handle...

For those that don't know, its the handle that actual controls which direction your going to go...forward or reverse. Standard practice is to remove it when the loco is unatended so that someone can't make it move under power.

train_radio_guy · Post by **train_radio_guy** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:08 pm

One of our base stations was actually located about 1/4 of a mile from a Mobilecomm Paging Transmitter, which sat on a 14 story building, transmitting on 158.700 MHz @ + 350 watts! Talk about desensitizing the front end of the Spectra. On top of that, when the local VHF police transmitter (+100 watts) was transmitting (also nearby), it would mix with the paging transmitter. All the dispatcher claimed he could hear was the local police dispatcher ranting, along with an annoying Golay/POCSAG signal, "loud as hell" in his ear.

Once we installed one of those Wabco pre-selectors (tunable 159 - 162 MHz, with a 2 MHz pass 'window' & steep 'skirts' on either side of the 'window'), our problems disappeared completely. Interestingly enough, some of the train crews also claimed to be experiencing similar problems in the area, but at a greatly reduced frequency, when compared to that of the base station.

The Mobilecomm transmitter has long since been retired, but we left the Wabco pre-selector in-line for good measure. Too bad we could never find another source of those compact pre-selectors. Cannibalizing old Wabco radios was the only real source, & that was depleted many years ago.

- trg,

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:24 pm

Is that a window mount antenna on the windscreen? Cell phone?

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:52 pm

All of the locomotives I've been in here (Australia) have had the desktop style controls (with an ordinary MCS2000 radio). Never seen the sideways stand before.

GP-38 · Post by **GP-38** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:26 am

That thin strip of metal is actually one of the electrodes for the heated windshield. And boy, they work. That glass gets hot!

It always cracks me up to see DTMF microphones in a locomotive. And the keypad on the Spectra is what...three to six feet away? I mean, a mic on each side in crew cab units is nice, but any worthwhile conductor can get up and tone in!

Besides the NS SD-60 and the UP SD70ACe, one of the most bizarre cab arrangements I have ever seen was on one of the original UP SD-60's with the three-piece windshield. The engineer's desktop and seat were in the middle, on a raised platform. He looked out the center pane, and on either side was a conductor's seat and desk.

Had a BNSF AC44 come down with a four-seater cab, engineer on right, brakeman in middle, two conductors on the left. That was cramped.
~Billy

GP-38 · Post by **GP-38** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:33 am

I hope I'm not veering too far off topic, but since I started it and we are sharing cab photos...this was taken on the same day as the Astro Spectra shots. I have no idea who that freak is *cough* but anyone in the know will see from several indications that we weren't really moving. Crazy things happen when crewmen bear cameras! I hope the wrong people don't see this...wonder what it would do to my chances of getting my student card!

Before anyone asks, just another UP SD70M. Above my hand are (L-R) Spectra and Pulse TrainLink III Mary with rear-end emergency actuator.

Yikes.
~Me

Radio99 · Post by **Radio99** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:16 am

I noticed from the photo posted above on the new Astro unit the "TRNK" key replaces the "TONE" key on the older units. Is Singletone (TONE) no longer available/used?

AAR Astro Spectra in use

AAR Astro Spectra in use

SPRR

dual controls

RR Astro Spectras

RR Astro Spectras

RR Astro Spectras

Re: RR Astro Spectras

RR Astro Spectras

Astro RR Spectra