GP68 out of band?

Henk · Post by **Henk** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:39 am

Hi,
I have purchased a GP68 from Ebay to find out its a 403-433Mhz version.
Does anyone know if it is possible to modify the device to 403-470Mhz?

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:08 pm

It would require a complete new board.
E bay strikes again.!

kato56 · Post by **kato56** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:03 am

Henk wrote:Hi,
I have purchased a GP68 from Ebay to find out its a 403-433Mhz version.
Does anyone know if it is possible to modify the device to 403-470Mhz?

I thought eBay banned the sales of GP68's???

va3wxm · Post by **va3wxm** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:38 pm

Only to the US.

richb · Post by **richb** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:19 pm

these units are not type accepted. and cannot be used in the us.

WFD44 · Post by **WFD44** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:34 pm

Ok, I'll bite on this one.

Can an FCC Type Acceptance be recended after it is issued by the manufacturer?

What I mean is I have a GP-68, in my hand, bearing a MOTOROLA label showing FCC ID: Az489FT4811. A search of the FCC website shows this as a valid type acceptance id.

I know Motorola keeps saying this radio is intended for the non-US market. However, if that is the case, then at some time it WAS intended for the US market or why else would the UHF model have a type acceptance id in the FCC database and on my unit?

va3wxm · Post by **va3wxm** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:24 am

My understanding is some early units had type acceptance until FCC stopped issuing them.

Why I don't know.

k2hz · Post by **k2hz** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:00 am

WFD44 wrote: What I mean is I have a GP-68, in my hand, bearing a MOTOROLA label showing FCC ID: Az489FT4811. A search of the FCC website shows this as a valid type acceptance id.

That FCC ID is Type Accepted for 430-470MHz Part 90 use. You have a legal version.

The 403-433MHz model under discussion is not Type Accepted and may not be used in the US.

The important thing to keep in mind if you buy equipment over the internet is that if there is no FCC ID #, it may not be imported, sold or used in the US. This applies to all RF devices, not just transmitters. Part 15 certification is required if it has any circuits that produce RF energy.

That is why eBay prohibits sales of devices that are known to be illegal for sale in the US.

Post by **VE9MP** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:03 am

Amateur radio equipment does not need type acceptance, hence the reason we can build and modify our transmitters.... so would a person in the US who was intending to use it on the Amateur Radio Service be able to buy one?

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:13 am

Just to add on the GP68 issue, early radios did have FCC ID's as did Pro series radios. My opinion is that these numbers were deleted to prevent their import into the US as US Customs is supposed to turn around non approved units. Even though these units did have a type acceptance on file the lack of marking the radios as such turned them into contraband in the US and Motorola had an additional tool to keep them out of the US. There was at least one dealer in Miami that was sued by Motorola for this practice.

k2hz · Post by **k2hz** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:42 am

VE9MP wrote:Amateur radio equipment does not need type acceptance, hence the reason we can build and modify our transmitters.... so would a person in the US who was intending to use it on the Amateur Radio Service be able to buy one?

The FCC permits hams to build and use non Type Accepted equipment for their own use and to sell a "homebrew" unit to another ham. Any commercially built equipment imported or sold in the US for ham use is subject to Part 15 approval and requires an FCC ID #. This is why you will sometimes see Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu ads for new ham equipment with the disclaimer that it is not yet approved by the FCC.

So a dealer in the US selling a non Type Accepted GP68 to ham would be in violation. If from overseas, importation would be a violation and it could be seized by US Customs. The use if it by a ham is probably a grey area. The real legal issue is with the sale.

Will · Post by **Will** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:25 pm

" Can an FCC Type Acceptance be recended after it is issued by the manufacturer? "

The FCC Type Acceptance IS issued by the Federal Communications Commission upon application by the manufacturer. And yes, it can be recended or canceled by the commission.
The GP 68 question is: the FCC type acceptance was issued in error due to the front pannel frequency 'programming' capability. Front pannel frequency 'programming' or entry into a radio violates the FCC rules, and hence the FCC type acceptance in not valid. Also due to the fact that a receive only channel could not be set up. The type acc number had to be removed and the radio was intended for ham use.

n0wmh · Post by **n0wmh** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:45 pm

Will wrote:"...The GP 68 question is: the FCC type acceptance was issued in error due to the front pannel frequency 'programming' capability. Front pannel frequency 'programming' or entry into a radio violates the FCC rules, and hence the FCC type acceptance in not valid..."

I've had others tell me this same thing about front panel programming being prohibited in transceivers, but I have never been able to find what part of the FCC rules this is in... anyone got a link?

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:18 am

Pull the radio apart, and sell it as a collection of parts. Parts don't need to be type approved.

k2hz · Post by **k2hz** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:46 am

n0wmh wrote: I've had others tell me this same thing about front panel programming being prohibited in transceivers, but I have never been able to find what part of the FCC rules this is in... anyone got a link?

FCC Rule 90.203

(e) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section,
transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz shall not be certificated
for use under this part if the operator can program and transmit on
frequencies, other than those programmed by the manufacturer, service or
maintenance personnel, using the equipment's external operation
controls.
(f) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section,
transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz that have been approved
prior to January 15, 1988, and that permit the operator, by using
external controls, to program the transmitter's operating frequencies,
shall not be manufactured in, or imported into the United States after
March 15, 1988. Marketing of these transmitters shall not be permitted
after March 15, 1989.

n0wmh · Post by **n0wmh** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:08 am

Okay, what about some of the Wulfsberg radios (http://www.wulfsberg.com/).... many of their transceivers are programmable from the front panel (and not just the VHF-Air models).... do they not require FCC Part 90 certification?

k2hz · Post by **k2hz** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:31 am

n0wmh wrote:Okay, what about some of the Wulfsberg radios (http://www.wulfsberg.com/).... many of their transceivers are programmable from the front panel (and not just the VHF-Air models).... do they not require FCC Part 90 certification?

There is an exception in 90.203(h) for front panel programming under Part 90 for aircraft radios that operate under the altitude, power and secondary use limitations of 90.423:

(h) The requirements of paragraphs (e), (f), and (g) of this section
shall not apply if:
(1) The equipment has been designed and manufactured specifically
for aircraft use; and
(2) The part 90 certification limits the use of the equipment to
operations only under Sec. 90.423.

WFD44 · Post by **WFD44** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:28 pm

I'm sure it was an oversight that K2HZ omitted Paragraph "g"

(g) Transmitters having frequency programming capability and that
are designed to operate above 25 MHz are exempt from paragraphs (e) and
(f) of this section if the design of such transmitters:
(1) Is such that transmitters with external controls normally
available to the operator must be internally modified to place the equipment in the
programmable mode. Further, while in the programmable mode, the
equipment shall not be capable of transmitting. The procedures for
making the modification and altering the frequency program shall not be
made available with the operating information normally supplied to the
end user of the equipment; or
(2) Requires the tramsitter to be programmed for frequencies through
controls normally inaccessible to the operator; or
(3) Requires equipment to be programmed for frequencies through use
of external devices or specifically programmed modules made available
only to service/maintenance personnel; or
(4) Requires equipment to be programmed through cloning (copying a
program directly from another transmitter) using devices and procedures
made available only to service/maintenance personnel.

Thus, the JT1000 & HT1550 are legal Type Accepted FPP Radios.

Bob KB1MNE · Post by **Bob KB1MNE** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:14 am

WFD44 wrote:Thus, the JT1000 & HT1550 are legal Type Accepted FPP Radios.

Normally I'd avoid reviving such an old thread -- especially as a first post

-- but, if I'm reading this one correctly, there's no reason why the GP68 shouldn't be type acceptable either... (i.e. it requires internal modification to program and can't transmit while in programming mode.)

So is the question remains, has the early type acceptance actually been revoked or has /\/\ just stopped placing it on the label in order to place a barrier (smoke screen?) against importing it?

If the radio is actively listed as type accepted, doesn't that ultimately trump the question of whether or not the acceptance is printed on the label?

wa2zdy · Post by **wa2zdy** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:38 pm

Not being certificated (the new term for type accepted) means it cannot be imported nor marketed in the US. But if it's already here, there is no prohibition on actually using it on the ham bands. Once used on the ham bands, the responsibility for spectral purity as well as legal operation falls on the licensee.

And that responsibility is why hams have to pass tests for their licenses. Of course today's exams don't reflect much technical knowledge anymore, but time was to get a ham ticket one had to know his/her stuff.

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:05 pm

I sold a GP-2000 to a guy in the USA a while ago. I just pulled the radio apart, and let him put it together when it arrived. Marked the package as "radio parts", and there were no problems.

60hzEE · Post by **60hzEE** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:42 pm

Not to prolong this, but if the federal government in the form of FEMA, or even the big /\/\ themselves, had made a few hundred GP-68's or GP-338's available during the Katrina aftermath, their interoperability problems would have gone away. At least with respect to responder/helicopter communications.

Now's your chance to tell the FCC to revise Part 90 to allow front panel, keyboard programming by operators. They have asked for comments on Rulemaking EB 06-119, the Katrina Panel report, as to what could be done to regulations to solve the interoperability problem.

I remember hearing of one ham with a modified HT who was the only one who could communicate with Coast Guard helos. And, Part 97 allows we hams to do just that in emergencies, when lives are at stake.

Lee
60HzEE
W6EM

mr.syntrx · Post by **mr.syntrx** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:54 am

Isn't that why bushfire fighting radios over there are FPP?

60hzEE · Post by **60hzEE** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:26 am

True. The United States Forest Service, an arm of our federal government, is not bound by FCC regulations. They, like our military, can purchase and operate any radios that the National Telecommunications and Information Administration say they may. FCC Type Acceptance is not required.

However, local and state governments must abide by FCC regulations, such as to only be able to use Type Accepted radios that are compliant with Part 90.

A strange scenario. A state or county fire crew can't use them, but a US Forest Service fire crew could. Fancy that.

Time for a change. And, the FCC wants to hear from us, with respect to emergency interoperability problems.

Lee
W6EM

jhook · Post by **jhook** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:40 am

seems like a strange law . most all bendix king radios are front panel programable as is the Tad line up which are both used by the local provincial gov't here. Tad's head quarter's is located in Vancouver BC. not sure where BK. is though Jhook

w4rez · Post by **w4rez** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:25 pm

What about all of the Regency/Relm radios that can be made to be FPP by moving a jumper? These are all type accepted, right?

I've recently become interested in buying one of these radios (the GP68) just for kicks, and I'm seeing a few people in Hong Kong selling them for peanuts. Anybody had any luck with these guys?

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:30 pm

I owned two of these radios several years ago, one VHF and
one UHF. They worked fine, and they covered all of the ham
band and all of the relevant commercial band. The FPP sequence
was a pain in the neck but it worked. Both radios had FCC
type acceptance stickers and numbers on them and I used the
UHF radio regularly at work with my company's itinerant
license on four channels.

However, neither radio had an alpha display, and to my way of
thinking this is a HUGE disadvantage, not so much on the ham
band where the channel steps are pretty well defined, but on
the commercial channels. Of course each radio is only twenty
channels, and maybe one can remember users by the frequency,
and maybe another person can't, but who wants to be bothered with having to remember what 154.160 is when a glance at the display showing something like "XXFDDISP" tells you what you need to know without even thinking about it?

I'm old and lazy, and I like alpha displays, period.

w4rez · Post by **w4rez** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:05 pm

Yeah the lack of an alpha display is a bit of a con, but for my purposes it will do. I mostly just want one because the Moto Mafia says that I can't have one.

Tom in D.C. · Post by **Tom in D.C.** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:34 pm

w4rez wrote:Yeah the lack of an alpha display is a bit of a con, but for my purposes it will do. I mostly just want one because the Moto Mafia says that I can't have one.

Right on!

Will · Post by **Will** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:10 am

We have been getting some GP68's in for service that are from H K, and they are not responding to the alignment software. Most have low battery alarm all the ime, low and distorted TX audio, ect. (Model not supported).

No to mention the charger will not work here unless you have 250 VAC.
Not even a real Moto charger. Not even with an external power pak.

Buyer be VERY aware......

GP68 out of band?

GP68 out of band?

Re: GP68 out of band?

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GP68 -- the interminable thread...

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