The grey market problem (long)

Post by **batdude** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:11 pm

There is something that I have been wanting to discuss lately - and now that I have some time to sit here and type my thoughts, I thought I'd vent just a little bit.

This all ties directly back to Nick Deulca / Harold Pick and the other guys who have gotten twisted around M's axle in the last few years.

Some of us have other hobbies other than M products. A new one of mine is collecting high end watches. Nowhere else have I seen the rampant rip offs similar to our current predicament with high end M radios.

Granted, there are more people dealing in high end watches - and therefore, more fakes entering the marketplace... but that's sorta redundant - what's important are the similarities involved in the high-end merchandise market.

Of course, when someone spends $8,000.00 on a high end rolex daytona and it turns out to be a built-from-parts POS... the "pain" is merely monetary....

When a firefighter is hurt because the radio he purchased on ebay was sold by someone (nick?) who didn't bother installing a gasket on the radio chassis...and it failed when it got wet.... we have an entire different ball game - LIABILITY... which, regardless of where you THINK it will end up - will come right back into Motorola's lap. Why sue some poor guy on ebay when you can go after a billion dollar conglomerate... who has a public image to uphold?

There are many ways to verify the authenticiy of a high end watch - usually one takes it to a master jeweler where a proper appraisal can be accomplished... which usually includes a complete disassembly... only then can the sum of the parts be validated to be original.

This leads us to the wonderful "grey" market.... where everything may, or may not be - as it seems. just as there are a handful of second-hand high-end watch dealers on greedbay, there are 100 times that number who sell built from parts, mix matched junkers and pass them off as originals. while M has done a pretty good job getting the "mass quantities" radios-built-from-parts dealers out of the picture (don't see nick selling radios anymore do you?) - it makes you wonder where it all ends.

I've recommended that M set up an official, no BS depot program for the Nick radios. The exact status of this I'm not sure about - but I think it's in place - assuming that most of the parts in your radio meet spec, you can get Moto to "buy off" on your franken-flashed deluca special and have a legit product in your hands. Of course, I would also expect that M send letters to the same people that they sent the "return our radios" letter to... but I doubt they'll do that. Imagine the response you would have gotten (M) had you said... "pay us $400 and we'll certify your franken-flash" instead of "return your radio to us and get nothing" ???

the judgement against harold seems to be more of a personal vendetta against him rather than something tangible for M. The facts of the case, as I understand them - were that he sold some radios to a division of something or another in LA... and M got PO'd about it.... rightfully so - if you were GM, and you had a guy who won a small contract to supply GM vehicles to a local business.... wouldn't it upset you if this guy wasn't even a GM dealer?

you bet it would.

however, the implications of the purported actions that harold took can be akin to buying some *USED* GM cars, putting some new body panels on them, cleaning the seats... and selling them... AS USED... *NOT* new.

This is apparently where we stand now.

The jury (?) has ruled that what he did was not illegal. Assembling used radios and selling them as USED... is not a crime. however, the software used to create said franken-radios.... leads to another entirely different discussion that I don't want to go into at this time.

---------------------part 2----------------------

just like stolen watches, there are LOTS of stolen radios out there.

i have bought and sold a number of radios over the years... and never have I had a problem with a radio coming back to bite me in the ass.

part of this are some common sense rules that some of you may not agree with.

- the addage that "you had to know it was stolen because you only paid $50 for it"

is completely ignorant of a free market economy. the true value or worth of ANYTHING ... is simple. Something is WORTH what someone else is willing to PAY FOR IT... nothing more - nothing less.

- "but that's a current issue model - no way it can be on the used market already!"

is another one that cracks me up. how about a military base that buys BOATLOADS of VHF radios...only to switch to a UHF trunking system 6 months later? where do these radios end up? Search around on the web - the auction sites are out there! go punch in "MOTOROLA ASTRO" into google and see what comes up.

- "THAT RADIO IS STOLEN." How often have you heard that one? My fav is when that is whispered between two people browsing tables at a hamfest!

for something to be stolen, it has to have a POLICE REPORT. There is a big difference between "missing" and "stolen" - and this leads us to a big problem in the used radio market....if something is missing - it's not necessarily stolen.... if it's stolen, and not noticed... is it stolen? (i need some imitrex after thinking about that one) ...

- "THAT RADIO HAS NO SERIAL TAG - IT MUST BE ILLEGAL"

Illegal? I doubt it. Built from parts? Perhaps. This is just one of those things that you have to educate yourself on! Too bad Rolex's don't have electronic serial numbers....

Let me digress.

I once had a college professor... ethics course... and he made sure we all had one point very clear before we passed his class. His words...

"THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UNETHICAL, IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL IS A JAIL CELL"

In other words - in business... there is no penalty for being unethical or immoral.... if you can sleep at night knowning you screwed someone without breaking the law - that's your cross to bear - not mine.

end of digression....

I've seen radios sold on the free market with "PROPERTY OF HOUSTON FIRE DEPARTMENT" engraved on the front of them. XTS 3500's in UHF to be exact. Guess what? PERFECTLY LEGAL SURPLUS.

Scenario day.

You go to the local flea market. Sitting there, brand new in the shipping box.. is an XTS 5000 radio in UHF, complete with all tags, warranty booklet and paperwork. Seller says... "I'll take $100 for that there CB radio". You choke (and instead of offering $50) dole out one fresh benjamin for your new toy.

Background... local air force base just went to UHF trunking. You know this. Radio is flashed with an Astro25 trunking flashcode.

Now ask yourself a question.

Is this radio stolen?

Perhaps.

To what end and with what resources can you use to verify that the radio is ok for sale / resale?

you have a buddy at the local PD who will run the radio's serial number through NCIC. you dole out the number and he runs it... comes back with no hits.

so you call the local base ... and after 4 hours of trying ... get the number to the land mobile shop... they refuse to give you any information ... and next thing you know - they want to know who you are and why you are calling requesting this information (i.e. - they go on the offensive!)

bottom line - they won't tell you squat. (not that they know anything in the first place - most minor property systems are broken anyway)

so you sell the radio on ebay. you make a tidy profit.

new owner of the radio does the same thing you did - runs the radio through NCIC... no hits (go figure, right?)

but the local shop goes a step further.

they call motorola.

motorola identifies the original purchaser of the radio... and contacts them... OH NOOOOOOO! "that radio is missing from our warehouse" they say.

now - is it stolen? (better get paid advice for that answer)

What I'm getting at here - and I've tried my resources...

is to get a honest to god LIST from M of the radio serial numbers that are "missing" or "lost" - or have "problems". I don't expect motorola to tell me if something is stolen - stolen means police report and NCIC entry.
I also don't expect them to tell me WHO / WHERE / WHEN it was stolen from.... I just want to find out if I am selling something smokin' hot.

Two fold solution.

1st.....An all-MSS alert that details what is to be done in the case of "lost" "missing" or "stolen" radios. This would include an entry into an internal motorola database (probably already exists) - and a request to have the radio serial number entered into NCIC. This information should also be passed on to all of M's major account holders - even adding a pop up on MOL when customers log in.

How many radios are lost in the field by firemen fighting fires? Or left on the back bumper of the patrol car and dumped into the street?

Probably HUNDREDS.... wouldn't it be nice to have a recovery method in place???

2nd....An open phone # at motorola where individuals can call and request the status of a particular radio serial #. I'm not after customer information - but any entry of a lost/missing radio into the database should include a phone number of someone at the entity that lost the radio... easy contact data for M.... Entities who "lose" products could even offer a reward if the radio is returned... paying $500 to get your $5000 radio back isn't such a bad deal in the long run!

I dunno guys - I guess i'm just waaaay too far out of the box anymore.

Feel free to respond - but if you are gonna flame me, stuff it.

Merry Xmas...and my buddy Adam Sandler sez "happy hannukah"

Doug

Threeshot223 · Post by **Threeshot223** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:10 pm

What you described above sounds like a Rube Goldberg-esque solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Systems are already in place to track/identify stolen property, and to recover and return said stolen property to it's rightful owner(s).

They're just radios. Missing radios aren't missing children. A continously-updated database of everything stamped with an M would be cost-prohibitive and most customers probably wouldn't even use it.

MTS2000des · Post by **MTS2000des** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:27 pm

Doug,

Great musings indeed. I think the real issue at hand is Motorola's desire to impede on the right of a private individual to dispose of his personally owned private property as he/she pleases.

the issue of Ebay junk radios falls strictly on the buyer. If a fireman or PD officer buys a radio and their system admin is crazy enough to cut it on a PS system without having given it a once over, they are the ones liable. Would they buy a used patrol car and not have it checked out by a mechanic and put it into service? if they did, shame on them for not taking the lives of their officers more seriously.

Don't get me wrong, I offer no excuses to the Delucas and others who pushed that parts built CRAP which is exactly what they are, CRAP onto buyers, and their theft of RSS/DEPOT/firmware is inexcusable. But the buyers have just as much to blame. If you are dumb enough to expect a tagless, parts built POS built by some guy to perform and function as the real deal built in Fort Lauderdale (or Malaysia) than you get what you deserve. CAVEAT EMPTOR is the phrase that comes to mind.

While it would be nice for Motorola to offer such a service to check our serial numbers, the bottom line is common sense. If a 100 dollar NIB XTS5000 falls in your hands, there's a good chance it belongs to someone else, and they will probabbly want it back one day.

Just the same if it doesn't come up as stolen by your local LE agency at the time of questioning it's yours of course any smart LEO could confiscate it and open an investigation, attempt to contact Motorola and then the owner to verify it's status...but that is up to your local LE agency not Motorola to do. And most LE agencies could care less, unless it is one of THEIR radios, or they have a complainant. No complainant...no crime. They have many rapists, murderers and terrorists to catch these days ya know.

Bottom line is the BUYER has to do his/her research before buying anything, wether it be radios, watches, cameras, widgets whatever.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:58 am

How many radios are lost in the field by firemen fighting fires? Or left on the back bumper of the patrol car and dumped into the street?

I can specifically recall three trips my Minitor IV and Quattrino pagers have rode on the back bumper of my Suburban...all found right where I left them.

I had a partner once who left the clipboard full of private info on the back bumper of an ambulance and it rode there for a good hour of stop & go's, turns, and curves before I said, "Where is the clipboard?". The aluminum clipboard was sitting exactly where he left it on the back diamond plate bumper...

ku4zs1 · Post by **ku4zs1** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:06 am

I read most of the other long thread about Nick and the parts radios. Big M kinda created the situation here. The total $ amount of purchasing all the parts to build a radio SHOULD exceed the price of buying a new M built radio, shouldn't it? Try buying the parts to build a car, you'll spend 20 times more than what a new built car would have cost ya.

motorola_otaku · Post by **motorola_otaku** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:58 pm

batdude wrote:I've seen radios sold on the free market with "PROPERTY OF HOUSTON FIRE DEPARTMENT" engraved on the front of them. XTS 3500's in UHF to be exact. Guess what? PERFECTLY LEGAL SURPLUS.

I bought a Saber II from him, same engraving. I'm waiting for the day when a cop sees me toting it around and asks to see it.

As far as the Moto database goes, I was "detained" once while a fire marshal tried every method at his disposal to locate the source of an MTS2000 radio I was carrying.. including contacting Motorola. The answer back from them, or so I overheard his comrade discussing with him, was that they manufactured thousands of those radios and had no real way of tracking its history. It was a totally clean radio that later turned out to be... PARTS BUILT partially from a dead radio surplused by the same agency.

Not really taking a stand on any issue, just sharing some personal experiences...

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:19 pm

I had a Police Officer back in the day question me when I was talking on an HT1000 (ham). They used the same radio, so naturally he was curious. I bought the radio at a hamfest for a decent buck, and had it programmed by a legit radio shop so there's nothing "grey" involved. Well, his attitude was one of "it looks like mine so it must be one of ours". He told me that I "must" have stolen it because their radios are the same and they'd had some stolen recently (mine was UHF, his was VHF). Well, he ran the serial number on CPIC (Canadian version of NCIC) and of course it came back clean, but that wasn't enough to satisfy the officer. Even producing a ham license didn't do the trick. I suggested he remove the battery and look at the model numbers to see that they are different. No dice. He took down my information and the model/sn of the radio and told me that he'd do some research and that if anything wasn't kosher, he'd be back. Needless to say that didn't happen.

Point here is that using a Motorola (especially ones that look like the ones the police/etc use) draws heat. Having all your ducks in order, so to speak, is probably a good idea. So, even if you DO have a parts built radio, make sure you have/get tags on it, and make sure those tags are clean.

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:44 pm

One problem I see here, Motorola has gotten so damned big that one hand does not know what the others are doing.

Motorola HAD a very good system in place, the LSS list that was updated usally montly. This WAS in the days before computers, ect. (LSS Lost Strayed, or Stolen).

Now that the LSS is gone to the wayside while Motorola makes gazillions of dollars, there is no way to check a serial number anymore....Sad indeed.

We used to get lots of radios in for repair with unknown herritage, and we checked them all thru a number at Motorola. And yes, we did find some radios and were able to get them back to the correct owners. Now the insurance companys tell me that they allready paid off on the "missing radio", so those never got to go home.

bellersley · Post by **bellersley** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:56 pm

So even if someone brings a radio to a shop to get programmed and the tech has a gut feeling it is hot, as long as it is clean as far as CPIC/NCIC is concerned, its legit?

Case in point, I know a fellow who has a very new radio (XTS5000) that he swears he got legally, but it has in-house markings ("SECURITY"). This guy is in his teens. If I were the tech who was asked to program it, I would be pretty curious. It would be nice if there was some way to track down the original owner to get some clarification on the matter.

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:38 pm

HMMMMMMMMMMM, sounds strangely familiar.

If it is not reported stolen, then what is the crime, providing that it comes back clean through NCIC?

SG

dbrock411 · Post by **dbrock411** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:59 pm

Reading through the post by bellersley above, I'd be curious how the radio got into the hands of the local police for them to even be inspecting it. A police office who wants to "see" the radio that I have in my hand better have some good probable cause to be inspecting it, just because it "looks like" one of theirs isn't going to cut it. Seems to me I remember something about the bill of rights...........

kb3jkp · Post by **kb3jkp** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:23 pm

well...

from "the other side".....

I was .. unfortunately.. a purchaser of a stolen radio....

a while back I bought a brand new xts5000, 800 mhz, loaded flash..NEVER programmed, still Z1 CHAN1 on the display, with nothing else.

sold it on ebay... made a few bucks on it...

about three months later.. DC inspector generals office calls.. wants to know if I know anything about a radio that came up missing.... guess what it was??

the guy I got it from.. or someone he knew.. was apparently stealing them from DC...I dont know where along the lines but... I was assured 100% that the radios were legit... I had the SN run through NCIC, came back clean, even CALLED motorola, who said they had no way to look up if a radio was stolen, and if I thought it was stolen, to call the police...

NOW.... going through that little hassle.......

I look very closely at the transactions I make....

the problem is.. I did everything in my power to make sure that the radio I was purchasing was legit.. YET.... I still get looked at like I did the sh!t on purpose, which concerns me...

if MOT would have came back, and said the radio was stolen, or missing or whatever... or NCIC came back that it was stolen.. problem solved...drop a dime on him.. maybe get some reward money..

but I did EVERYTHING I could to assure it wasnt stolen.. and it was.... MY FAULT??? Who's fault is it??

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:26 am

kb3jkp,

You did what you could, M won't just give out info, NCIC did it's job. If these goofs don't report the stuff stolen, and it gets loose, then it's the seller's fault??? I don't think so. There are no current laws about selling or recieving "missing" property.

SG

kb3jkp · Post by **kb3jkp** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:32 am

SG...there are laws about possesion of "stolen" property though,lol

OTOH.. if I post in the paper.. that I "have radio XYZ,will the legal owner please claim it" and noone claims it within X number of days(I think its 90 here in MD).. I do believe that most states recognize that as a legal transfer of ownership...

BUT.. if the original.. THIEF.......steals it.. but they dont notice it missing.. and I get it.... then WTF?

but I'm assuming that by posting it in the paper.. you "think" its stolen.. THEN .. you're guilty of possesion of stolen property.. because you have a reason to believe its stolen

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:54 am

kb3jkp,

You are correct, there are laws about recieving stolen property, but it has to be reported stolen in the first place. There are no laws against recieving missing property.

At this point I would say to steer away from high end radio's, it's not worth the aggravation to have to deal with the BS of an interogation and giving someone there money back.

Of course, I am assuming that you had to pay back the party involved..... right?

SG

kb3jkp · Post by **kb3jkp** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:20 pm

SG-

Negative.....

after a 30 min impromptu meeting with two investigators.. one who was trying to "be slick" and not give his name.....they left... and advised me NOT to contact anyone.. including the guy I sold it to...so.. I didnt ask him if he wanted his money back....

they did ask me to call the guy that I got the radio from and ask him if he had any more radios.. when I called him and asked him.. he said he didnt know what I was talking about so.. apparently he knew what was going on.... while I was the one he wanted to take the fall.. screw that....

The grey market problem (long)

The grey market problem (long)

Re: The grey market problem (long)