USING MCS2000 as REPEATER
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webby52
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:17 am
- What radios do you own?: HT1250, XTS2500, APX6500
USING MCS2000 as REPEATER
At our police dept, we have large mountains obstructing tower views, so we installed a remote site at another tower across the river in a different state,(border of NJ and PA) which effectively covers the western portion of the twp. The problem is, the MCS2000 constantly goes down every 3-5 days, it locks out. The only way to get it to come back online is to pull the fuses to its 120-12v power supply and the radio at the same time. The radio is at the top of a mountain at a historic park, which does not have a very reliable power source. We installed a way to large battery backup and now currently use a deep cycle battery in addition to the 120v to 12v power source. (it apparently charges the battery too) the voltage drops to about 11.5 v when the radio is transmitting. Ive removed the time outs for transmitting, thinking it may have been locking out, but still having radio drop out. This radio hears the dispatch center and then rebroadcasts it to this affected area thru a canopy system. We used to have a GM300 up there when we were rx and tx at 453.375 and 458.375 respectfully. Now we rx at 509.3625 which a GM300 cant be programed for. This is why we switched up to the MCS2000. Any other ideas, im fresh out...
Interesting to see the MCS is turning off.
Keep in mind using mobile radios for an application that could be at or near 100% duty cycle isn't a good idea - they aren't made for it, and you should probably be using a MTR2000/Quantar (or even an older MSF) for this application (IMHO).
If you really wanted to cheap out - you probably could have gotten a CDM1550 and used pretty much the same interface that ran the GM.
Regardless, you have what you have.
Can you pinpoint a certain circumstance that causes this to happen? Are you guys using tone remotes, or local control through the canopy system [not really sure if it's possible, but I'll throw it out there]?
How is your battery system setup and configured? (One of the guys on here RKG can probably weigh in with some suggestions if you think it's an actual power issue).
Since you have to remove the fuses in the first place, I am leaning to there being a problem with the hardware/software interaction in the radio. What firmware version does the radio have? (Press the monitor key 5 times, and post all the information that scrolls by on the screen here).
You probably should consider talking to your dealer, and seeing if you swap the radio out - if the problem persists.
-Alex
Keep in mind using mobile radios for an application that could be at or near 100% duty cycle isn't a good idea - they aren't made for it, and you should probably be using a MTR2000/Quantar (or even an older MSF) for this application (IMHO).
If you really wanted to cheap out - you probably could have gotten a CDM1550 and used pretty much the same interface that ran the GM.
Regardless, you have what you have.
Can you pinpoint a certain circumstance that causes this to happen? Are you guys using tone remotes, or local control through the canopy system [not really sure if it's possible, but I'll throw it out there]?
How is your battery system setup and configured? (One of the guys on here RKG can probably weigh in with some suggestions if you think it's an actual power issue).
Since you have to remove the fuses in the first place, I am leaning to there being a problem with the hardware/software interaction in the radio. What firmware version does the radio have? (Press the monitor key 5 times, and post all the information that scrolls by on the screen here).
You probably should consider talking to your dealer, and seeing if you swap the radio out - if the problem persists.
-Alex
You don't mean MTR2000 do you?
Why does your battery drop to 11.5 volts on tx?
If power is not reliable, I would use a 12-volt radio (not 120 VAC with battery revert, but a pur 12-volt radio).
Connect the radio to the 12-volt battery system (do not use wet cells, use AGM type). Use a proper charger/recifier to float the batteries (Argus, Xantrex or Trace). Use a low voltage disconnect if possible.
That way the radio is fully isolated from power bumps. The charger will take the hit.
Why does your battery drop to 11.5 volts on tx?
If power is not reliable, I would use a 12-volt radio (not 120 VAC with battery revert, but a pur 12-volt radio).
Connect the radio to the 12-volt battery system (do not use wet cells, use AGM type). Use a proper charger/recifier to float the batteries (Argus, Xantrex or Trace). Use a low voltage disconnect if possible.
That way the radio is fully isolated from power bumps. The charger will take the hit.
Long range diagnosis is usually an exercise in speculation, but a couple of observations may be in order:
1. Solid state devices such as your MCS2000 will usually be programmed by firmware to shut down when voltage drops below a given point, in order to protect themselves. However, I have no ready explanation for why the radio does not come back on its own after voltage rises.
2. If your radio pulls the battery voltage down to 11.5 when transmitting, what this seems to tell us is that (a) the battery is not large enough for the load or (b) the battery is shot.
3. You don't specify the size of the battery or the power of the radio. Assuming a mid-power MCS, it should be drawing about 80-100 watts on transmit, or about 10A. A Group 27 or Group 31 battery (size of a car battery) should be able to carry this load for a short while without having voltage drop below about 12.5VDC.
4. If I had to guess (which, in fact, is the case), I'd say that the otherwise undescribed "power supply" is killing the battery. Unless the "power supply" is designed to be a properly regulated battery charger, it may be functioning as a trickle charger, which is a device that attempts to continue supplying some minimum current (somewhere between 100 and 750 mA) to the battery at rest. In order to do that, the device has to allow battery terminal voltage to rise; I've seen trickle chargers that pull 12V battery terminal voltage up as high as 16VDC. A sustained "charge" at that voltage will quickly destroy the plates of any sort of 12V storage battery, with flooded cell batteries being the more resistant and sealed valve-regulated batteries (gels and AGMs) being the most fragile. One tell-tale of what I suspect the problem may be would be if you found flooded cell batteries to be "dry," i.e., electrolyte completely boiled away.
5. You could investigate the problem (and confirm or refute my speculation) by hooking a recording DVM to the battery and letting it run to the point of failure.
6. If my assessment is on point, the "cure" would involve redesigning the system. Most likely you should (a) increase the number of batteries employed and (b) replace the "power supply" with a device designed to be capable of being continuously attached to the batteries. Of the many devices out there, in my experience only two can perform this function reliably. The less expensive is the Xantrex Tru-Charge.
7. So long as they are hooked to a proper device, I prefer gel cells for remote installations, primarily because they do not gas and do not need periodic battery maintenance. You should be able to aquire a 20A Tru-Charge and two East Penn 8G31DT gel cells for under $750.
1. Solid state devices such as your MCS2000 will usually be programmed by firmware to shut down when voltage drops below a given point, in order to protect themselves. However, I have no ready explanation for why the radio does not come back on its own after voltage rises.
2. If your radio pulls the battery voltage down to 11.5 when transmitting, what this seems to tell us is that (a) the battery is not large enough for the load or (b) the battery is shot.
3. You don't specify the size of the battery or the power of the radio. Assuming a mid-power MCS, it should be drawing about 80-100 watts on transmit, or about 10A. A Group 27 or Group 31 battery (size of a car battery) should be able to carry this load for a short while without having voltage drop below about 12.5VDC.
4. If I had to guess (which, in fact, is the case), I'd say that the otherwise undescribed "power supply" is killing the battery. Unless the "power supply" is designed to be a properly regulated battery charger, it may be functioning as a trickle charger, which is a device that attempts to continue supplying some minimum current (somewhere between 100 and 750 mA) to the battery at rest. In order to do that, the device has to allow battery terminal voltage to rise; I've seen trickle chargers that pull 12V battery terminal voltage up as high as 16VDC. A sustained "charge" at that voltage will quickly destroy the plates of any sort of 12V storage battery, with flooded cell batteries being the more resistant and sealed valve-regulated batteries (gels and AGMs) being the most fragile. One tell-tale of what I suspect the problem may be would be if you found flooded cell batteries to be "dry," i.e., electrolyte completely boiled away.
5. You could investigate the problem (and confirm or refute my speculation) by hooking a recording DVM to the battery and letting it run to the point of failure.
6. If my assessment is on point, the "cure" would involve redesigning the system. Most likely you should (a) increase the number of batteries employed and (b) replace the "power supply" with a device designed to be capable of being continuously attached to the batteries. Of the many devices out there, in my experience only two can perform this function reliably. The less expensive is the Xantrex Tru-Charge.
7. So long as they are hooked to a proper device, I prefer gel cells for remote installations, primarily because they do not gas and do not need periodic battery maintenance. You should be able to aquire a 20A Tru-Charge and two East Penn 8G31DT gel cells for under $750.
So instead of fixing the low voltage drop out problem they make you buy an expensive digital radio which you probably don't need ?
I don't think the low voltage drop out is any better on the XTL than it is on the MCS at the same RF output power.
Typical present day M sales people, they have no technical expertise nor integrity anymore otherwise they would have sold you on a better power supply route.
I'm sure you'll be back here after the XTL starts doing the same, unless the M sales guy is going to set it at a really low output power level where it won't sag the supply voltage down as much as the MCS was.
Mike
I don't think the low voltage drop out is any better on the XTL than it is on the MCS at the same RF output power.
Typical present day M sales people, they have no technical expertise nor integrity anymore otherwise they would have sold you on a better power supply route.
I'm sure you'll be back here after the XTL starts doing the same, unless the M sales guy is going to set it at a really low output power level where it won't sag the supply voltage down as much as the MCS was.
Mike
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CTAMontrose
- was grem467
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:46 pm