Hi All !
I am new to this forum, But not to the 2-way world.
I am curious to learn if there are any commercially available systems that allow reprogramming (programmable) repeaters over the air ???
if so, could you point me to such ?
and if not, I would like to hear your feedback - do you think I should spend my time into developing such a system ?
I am an engineer and I have been playing with this idea for a while now. I finally have the time now to work on this if you folks think I am on the right direction here.....
Any comments are welcomed !
Tnx,
Moni KC2KRW
OTA (Over The Air) Repeater programming ???
Moderator: Queue Moderator
I suppose it depends on what you mean by reprogrammable over the air.
If you're talking about configuration such as PL vs CSQ, hangtime, port control, etc. then I suspect there are many solutions out there. Heck, even the S-COM repeater controllers we use on our UHF amateur repeaters can be programmed over the air w/ DTMF.
However, if you're talking about changing frequencies on the fly, even my limited experience tells me that there's a lot of work involved in tuning a repeater and associated duplexers, filters, etc, for a single frequency. I suppose my question would be, even if you had a good reason to, how would you?
If you're talking about configuration such as PL vs CSQ, hangtime, port control, etc. then I suspect there are many solutions out there. Heck, even the S-COM repeater controllers we use on our UHF amateur repeaters can be programmed over the air w/ DTMF.
However, if you're talking about changing frequencies on the fly, even my limited experience tells me that there's a lot of work involved in tuning a repeater and associated duplexers, filters, etc, for a single frequency. I suppose my question would be, even if you had a good reason to, how would you?
What sort of market are you thinking is there for this capability?
Big systems [e.g. Motorola Smartzone] really have no need for over the air programming since the system repeaters are all networked for diagnostics, status, control, reprogramming etc. These systems even support loading new firmware into the stations remotely from the prime site or from Motorola's System Support Center.
Traditional commercial & public safety repeaters tend to be pretty static - get a license, put the system on the air, use it. If need for a change comes up - as infrequently as that happens - a site visit is probably a good idea anyway to verify alignment, duplexer tuning, etc..
Community repeaters are an exception - they have needs for regular access to add/delete users, retrieve air time use, etc. Some of those controllers allow over the air programming. Others use dial-up.
Ham repeaters, or more properly ham repeater controllers, have many set up features such as messages, ID's, time of day, port & link activation, etc. These already support over the air programming via DTMF.
Some also have serial port programming and in some cases these have been reprogrammed over the air by attaching the serial port to a packet TNC.
Big systems [e.g. Motorola Smartzone] really have no need for over the air programming since the system repeaters are all networked for diagnostics, status, control, reprogramming etc. These systems even support loading new firmware into the stations remotely from the prime site or from Motorola's System Support Center.
Traditional commercial & public safety repeaters tend to be pretty static - get a license, put the system on the air, use it. If need for a change comes up - as infrequently as that happens - a site visit is probably a good idea anyway to verify alignment, duplexer tuning, etc..
Community repeaters are an exception - they have needs for regular access to add/delete users, retrieve air time use, etc. Some of those controllers allow over the air programming. Others use dial-up.
Ham repeaters, or more properly ham repeater controllers, have many set up features such as messages, ID's, time of day, port & link activation, etc. These already support over the air programming via DTMF.
Some also have serial port programming and in some cases these have been reprogrammed over the air by attaching the serial port to a packet TNC.
I am thinking in particular to design an embedded unit that will be something like a remote RIB / RSS ; either for HAM or public safety purposes.
I understand the limitations of duplexer adjustments on site, so maybe frequency programming will be limited in use unless a quick-deployment, 2-antenna system is being used. But the ability to program GM300, Maxtrac or MCS2000 based repeaters over the air with full RSS parameters sounds appealing to me.
The embedded system wil be fault-proof and will default to the previous working state if any error occured, Radio codeplugs will be stored in local Flash memory.
I am hoping to generate some interest here and to here more from you - before I invest more time and money into this....
Moni, KC2KRW
I understand the limitations of duplexer adjustments on site, so maybe frequency programming will be limited in use unless a quick-deployment, 2-antenna system is being used. But the ability to program GM300, Maxtrac or MCS2000 based repeaters over the air with full RSS parameters sounds appealing to me.
The embedded system wil be fault-proof and will default to the previous working state if any error occured, Radio codeplugs will be stored in local Flash memory.
I am hoping to generate some interest here and to here more from you - before I invest more time and money into this....
Moni, KC2KRW
simple.
As quantars/quantro series can be programmed via modem
I had a repeater in a remote area with no land lines so I put something similar to this in
hxxp://www.arcelect.com/Multitech_Digital_GSM- ... _modem.htm
Dial it up from a regular computer and do whatever in RSS
An MTR should work as well
I can think of several other ways of doing via the reciever of the radios.
a Basic way is feed the discriminator and exiter into a modem that does V32 bis set up for 9600 buad. Use a wild card to activate the modem so it doesnt send crap over the air unless needed.
Also whilst trying to do things on the operating channel what is the odds that a user will hear data over the air and say whats this and hit the tx button and corrupt the data.
At the other end you need the same with a subscriber.
It is cheap to do but you need a 25k channel to do it.
We used to send data to rally cars via a repeater in a plane using that method.
There is no reason RSS wouldn't work the same.
From a Public Safety standpoint. We have Moscad so we just select the station and click the RSS button, our windows quantar software opens.
Click connect then read. Don't spend to much time pondering this problem.
It is simple but I really cant see many applications unless the site can't be easily reached. And then the easiest way is a cellular modem, assuming there is cell coverage.
As quantars/quantro series can be programmed via modem
I had a repeater in a remote area with no land lines so I put something similar to this in
hxxp://www.arcelect.com/Multitech_Digital_GSM- ... _modem.htm
Dial it up from a regular computer and do whatever in RSS
An MTR should work as well
I can think of several other ways of doing via the reciever of the radios.
a Basic way is feed the discriminator and exiter into a modem that does V32 bis set up for 9600 buad. Use a wild card to activate the modem so it doesnt send crap over the air unless needed.
Also whilst trying to do things on the operating channel what is the odds that a user will hear data over the air and say whats this and hit the tx button and corrupt the data.
At the other end you need the same with a subscriber.
It is cheap to do but you need a 25k channel to do it.
We used to send data to rally cars via a repeater in a plane using that method.
There is no reason RSS wouldn't work the same.
From a Public Safety standpoint. We have Moscad so we just select the station and click the RSS button, our windows quantar software opens.
Click connect then read. Don't spend to much time pondering this problem.
It is simple but I really cant see many applications unless the site can't be easily reached. And then the easiest way is a cellular modem, assuming there is cell coverage.
Do some work on it and let us beta test it for you... Then we can tell you how useful it will be... I know I'd be interested, particularly if it worked on Kenwood equipment and older Motorola equipment such as the MSF 5000 and GR series repeaters. Not so much for frequencies, but for PL tones, etc.
Another niche market this could be applied to is Amateur Radio remote bases... Perhaps if you came up with a way to remotely reprogram and easily control Motorola mobiles interfaced to an amateur repeater controller...
That's yet to be done other than channel steering via aux inputs/outputs.... No real "frequency agility" for Moto stuff via ham controllers has been developed... (Yeah yeah, Syntor/SyntorX, but come on...) Perhaps if your interface had a DTMF control interface.... Wow!
Another niche market this could be applied to is Amateur Radio remote bases... Perhaps if you came up with a way to remotely reprogram and easily control Motorola mobiles interfaced to an amateur repeater controller...
That's yet to be done other than channel steering via aux inputs/outputs.... No real "frequency agility" for Moto stuff via ham controllers has been developed... (Yeah yeah, Syntor/SyntorX, but come on...) Perhaps if your interface had a DTMF control interface.... Wow!
I see a market for OTA programming of mobiles.
I'm very familiar with one case in 1999, where techs travelled around to every corner of New South Wales, Australia, a state roughly the size of Texas, to reprogram and perform FLASHport upgrades to about 11,500 MCS2000 mobiles and MTS2000 portables for the NSW Rural Fire Service.
That exercise cost several hundred thousand bucks. It would've been much cheaper to do that over the air.
As for programming bases, when you change frequencies, you probably have to retune the duplexer etc, so you need to visit the site anyway.
I'm very familiar with one case in 1999, where techs travelled around to every corner of New South Wales, Australia, a state roughly the size of Texas, to reprogram and perform FLASHport upgrades to about 11,500 MCS2000 mobiles and MTS2000 portables for the NSW Rural Fire Service.
That exercise cost several hundred thousand bucks. It would've been much cheaper to do that over the air.
As for programming bases, when you change frequencies, you probably have to retune the duplexer etc, so you need to visit the site anyway.
Oh I see the market in public safety as does Motorola, but for single and ham repeaters.
No market.
But you are right about something like NSW (Although why would anyone want to live there is beyond me)
HA! HA! you can tell I'm from south of the border!
No imagine if it was WA or something like that.
No market.
But you are right about something like NSW (Although why would anyone want to live there is beyond me)
HA! HA! you can tell I'm from south of the border!
No imagine if it was WA or something like that.
I don't live in NSW, I live in the ACT, drinking coffee and playing with expensive toys on the taxpayer's coin 
WA isn't all that bad - there's only maybe a dozen places you'd need to go that are a significant distance from Perth, as the rest are reasonably close together in the southwestern corner.
As for Victoria - with that idiot Bracks running the place, you're better off in NSW!
WA isn't all that bad - there's only maybe a dozen places you'd need to go that are a significant distance from Perth, as the rest are reasonably close together in the southwestern corner.
As for Victoria - with that idiot Bracks running the place, you're better off in NSW!
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440roadrunner
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Oh I see the market in public safety
I'm not even sure I see that. Ask yourself how many times ANY commercial or puplic safety system had to change frequencies? So far as "flashing" mobiles, seems to me that this would be a VERY risky undertaking. All you'd need is some noise or another transmitter on frequency to ruin your flash upgrade. What then, do you have a brick on your hands?
I can see where SOME over the air data, like troubleshooting, being able to read power and SWR, temperature, and other troubleshooting aids would be great.
However, so far as freq programming........
You can always sell it to the govt. They'll buy ANYTHING
Not PS base stations as most decent public safety systems have Moscad or equivalent. I can change all the parameters one every Quantar/Quantros in our system from any Moscad terminal. Whilst I can't see a reason to to change much it is handy to get log files when a repeater is suspect.
On the mobile and portable side there are many advantages especially with adjacent systems doing rebanding etc. Adding a new talkgroup to the police and so on.
Instead of getting in 1000 radios to reprogram a simple list of serial numbers can be reprogrammed over the air.
And as for WA, I used to work out of Dampier supporting Hammersly Iron.
And as for ACT one word sums it up Booooooorrrrrrrrrring
As for Vic I left asbout 20 years ago and cant say I miss it to much
On the mobile and portable side there are many advantages especially with adjacent systems doing rebanding etc. Adding a new talkgroup to the police and so on.
Instead of getting in 1000 radios to reprogram a simple list of serial numbers can be reprogrammed over the air.
And as for WA, I used to work out of Dampier supporting Hammersly Iron.
And as for ACT one word sums it up Booooooorrrrrrrrrring
As for Vic I left asbout 20 years ago and cant say I miss it to much
You wouldn't do FLASHport upgades over the air - if Motorola were more sensible in their radios' design to make them more tolerant of flash SNAFUs, you probably could though. They only did FLASHport upgrades in that particular case because it was convenient to do so while visiting the radios.440roadrunner wrote:Oh I see the market in public safety
I'm not even sure I see that. Ask yourself how many times ANY commercial or puplic safety system had to change frequencies? So far as "flashing" mobiles, seems to me that this would be a VERY risky undertaking. All you'd need is some noise or another transmitter on frequency to ruin your flash upgrade. What then, do you have a brick on your hands?
In the case I mentioned above, OTA reprogramming would automatically pay for itself many times it were used just once. The trunked system that organisation is on has a couple of users who are almost their size, radio-wise.
at the last MTUG conference there was a scenario
Washington DC has 7 or more smartzone systems.
There is one 7.x system that will have the capability of OTA reprogramming.
All the other agencies have the 7.x programmed into them for mutual aid.
The question was could the 7.x system program the other systems radios OTA.
Before anyone could respond the 7.x agency representative stood up and her words were NO! dont even think about it.
It just shows what it could be used for.
Washington DC has 7 or more smartzone systems.
There is one 7.x system that will have the capability of OTA reprogramming.
All the other agencies have the 7.x programmed into them for mutual aid.
The question was could the 7.x system program the other systems radios OTA.
Before anyone could respond the 7.x agency representative stood up and her words were NO! dont even think about it.
It just shows what it could be used for.