GMRS radios, Fire Department use

[rescuer]

Ok, got another question here. Seems like a pretty good idea to me but I don't know if it is legal.

Seems like everyone has a cellular phone nowadays, and many people have GMRS/FRS radios that they use to talk to family members etc. Everything works well normally. What would happen if a major storm knocked out landline phone service, an a celluar tower or two collapsed? The FD is looking into the possibility of constructing a GMRS base station an maybe even a repeater some day to be a last-line chance to summons help if all other methods fail.

We are studing the possibility of being able to communicate with the public on GMRS frequencies in the event of a disaster. (We are actually thinking of placing a CB radio and monitor channel 9 as well).

Can this legally be done? I'm referring to licensing a FD for GMRS use. These radios would not be used for fire fighting use (we use VHF). From what I can tell, the FCC will only grant a GMRS license to individuals. Could I personnally acuire the GMRS license and then the FD use if for such? Is it worth trying to get a license or just do it and hope we never get caught? I hope we never have to use it. I see this project as Interoperability with the Public.

I personally don't think anyone would ever object to the use if it saved a life, legal or not, however I would like to do it legally. We have thought about putting some of the MURS channels in our current base station, and set the channel for low power but that would still be over the 2 Watt limit, and GMRS radios are so much more common.

If we ever get it established, we are going to place an article in the local newspaper telling which channel we would be monitoring in the event of a disaster, and what steps to follow. We would also state something to the effect of call 911 first. This would be a last resort option only.

Thanks,

[k2hz]

The FCC Rules are clear that only an individulal, not an organization can obtain a GMRS license. Every member who uses the radio would have to obtain their own license. Only you or a member of your family can operate under your license. The fact that everyone needs their own license, unless they are members of the same familly, probably makes it impractical.

If you did put up a base or repeater in which was used routinely only by you or other FD members with GMRS licenses, there would probably be no problem if it was used by others only in true emergency situations.

I see a problem with someone complaining to the FCC only if it was routinely used by unlicensed people

[Tom in D.C.]

Legal or not, which it's not, you would have a completely
unworkable "system" populated by untrained, panicked
individuals who all want to talk at the same time.

Forget about it. It won't work. And as far as "getting caught"
you really don't want to go there.

[W4WTF]

Legal or not, which it's not, you would have a completely
unworkable "system" populated by untrained, panicked
individuals who all want to talk at the same time.

Forget about it. It won't work. And as far as "getting caught"
you really don't want to go there.

I tend to agree. As soon as you publish that freq idiots would note and jam it, and you have kids on any GMRS freq with thier bubble pack radios.

This is actually one of the few places where you might work some local ham operators/cert team/explorers into a plan. Publish that in a communications emergency you will have contact people at certain intersections, public buildings etc. They will have radios and be able to contact you.

Depending on the size of your district you may be able to do it all simplex, or may need a repeater.

[RKG]

1. Legalities:

A) You cannot license a Fire Department as a GMRS licensee.

B) In any emergency, you can, without commiting a violation, communicate with anyone on any frequency, unless and until ordered by FCC to desist. 47 C.F.R. sec. 90.407.

2. Practicalities:

I leave this to others, with the observation that, while you might end up dealing with untrained folks over the radio, Fire Alarm operators are pretty good a dealing with untrained folks over the telephone every day.

[57Shasta]

I won't dissagree with above posts, but here is what exists locally. There is a SAR group that is authorized to use VHF simplex only. Works ok for on scene comms for all personell. Sucks for enroute coordination. One member aquired and licensed a GMRS repeater at a high level site. Other support members got their GMRS license ( no test, just form + $$). During a call out they they meet on the repeater to discuss the situation. Can the FCC regulate the content of the conversation? No (to a degree). Can there be cross license conversations? Don't know, but they do it. A post on GMRS.org might clear this up. Jammers and wise guys? Where is there a service they don't exist? Up to you to post freqs and PL publicly. On the up side, those "bubble pack radios" won't do a repeater split. I think any service that emergency or priority traffic is utilized is more than kosher.

Also, don't monitor CB-9 unless there is a bottle of Motrin nearby...

[W3MOT]

You can use a Bubble Pack radio on GMRS frequencies without a licence I believe. Because I read somewhere that the radio is only illegal if it pushes out more then a certain amount of watts. BP radios are only 1 watt. Don't even bother doing that though. UHG. It gives me a headache just THINKING about letting citizens communicate with FD over HT's. Forget it.

[MTS2000des]

You can use a Bubble Pack radio on GMRS frequencies without a licence I believe. Because I read somewhere that the radio is only illegal if it pushes out more then a certain amount of watts. BP radios are only 1 watt. Don't even bother doing that though. UHG. It gives me a headache just THINKING about letting citizens communicate with FD over HT's. Forget it.

absolutely incorrect, transmitting on GMRS channels requires a GMRS license, regardless of power output.

[RKG]

You can use a Bubble Pack radio on GMRS frequencies without a licence I believe. Because I read somewhere that the radio is only illegal if it pushes out more then a certain amount of watts. BP radios are only 1 watt. Don't even bother doing that though. UHG. It gives me a headache just THINKING about letting citizens communicate with FD over HT's. Forget it.

Not so. Transmitting on any GMRS frequency (input or output) at any power requires a GMRS license.

[Bob KB1MNE]

It's not exactly a new concept -- for better or worse.

See, for example, http://www.nationalsos.net/

IMHO, no tool should be totally ignored but GMRS for emergency traffic would just about be my last choice for anything more critical than coordinating a weenie roast...

Before I'd invest seriously in any kind of GMRS system (repeaters, etc.) I'd look carefully at hardening existing FD systems and providing independant, remote, redundant backup systems.

If somebody in the department (or an affiliated ham or other emcomm volunteer) wants to help out by offering FRS/GMRS equipment and assistance, great! But don't serioulsy consider GMRS as an acceptable alternative for licensed emergency frequencies and pro-grade equipment.

[n9upc]

While we do not have a GMRS license we have GMRS/FRS radios for emergency comm incidents. Basically SAR, special events where we need to communicate with the public, biking events, etc...

GMRS licenses can not be obtained for business usage (even though we all know businesses are doing this) just for the purpose so businesses do not get free radio license's. (Remember uncle sam has to screw you over somehow, cause the airways are not free but the air is for now!)

This is what we do and it works out well.

[bellersley]

I think instead of spending $$$ on GMRS radios and what not for the public to contact the FD, it would be better spent investing in improved public 911 education. While most people in America know that 911 is the emergency number, a large amount of people don't use 911 because they don't think their situaion is an emergency. Up here in the GTA, there was a recent 911 education program. The message was more or less "Call 911 regardless". The result was increased 911 call load, but I would suspect better response times and the like.

One that that I DON'T appreciate however, is calling 911 for a drunk driver only to be told by the call taker (who, around here, is the same person you get if you call the non-emergency number) that you should not use 911 for that, in a tone of voice that makes you feel like a complete idiot.

[radio230]

One that that I DON'T appreciate however, is calling 911 for a drunk driver only to be told by the call taker (who, around here, is the same person you get if you call the non-emergency number) that you should not use 911 for that, in a tone of voice that makes you feel like a complete idiot.

I have to disagree with you here. I am a telecommunicator (dispatcher). I usually work alone. I (we) dispatch for 3 police departments, 4 fire departments, and 1 1/2 EMS companies. (the "1/2" is a private company we contact and provide call information then they "dispatch" the units. As you said, I answer both the 9-1-1 lines and the non-emergency number, as well as take care of all the radio traffic. I have several incoming non-emergency lines for all these departments, so if I have to I can stack them up on hold if need be. I have only 2 incoming 9-1-1 lines for all these departments. To make matters worse, the St Clair Co ETSB (Emergency Telephone Systems Board) frowns on placing a 9-1-1 call on hold. In fact, they say a 9-1-1 call should not be placed on hold for more than 10 seconds! If I have a call on hold longer, another 9-1-1 PSAP (Public Safety Answering Point) is supposed to take over the call I have on hold (plus a call on hold makes an annoying beep in all the other PSAPs) The thing is, a 9-1-1 call takes precedent over all other matters, non-emergency lines are placed on hold, units are told to hold all radio traffic unless urgent, so the EMERGENCY 9-1-1 call can be handled quickly and units sent promply.

So back to my point, if I am on a 9-1-1 call I am supposed to let it "roll-over" to another PSAP. This takes 12 seconds of ringing at my PSAP, then our secondary PSAP CENCOM (St Clair County CENtral COMmunications) gets it. They have to answer it (or it rolls over again to another PSAP) take the information, determine whos venue it is supposed to be and send it back to me so units can be dispatched. So basically if someone calls 9-1-1 for a drunk driver and I answer it, and then someone calls 9-1-1 for a house fire with people trapped, I am supposed to let the second 9-1-1 call "roll-over". This has created at least a 45 - 60 second delay in sending help to the people trapped in the house fire. Where 60 seconds probably won't make much difference for the drunk driver, it could be life or death for someone else. This is why you are told you should not use 9-1-1 for that (at least in how thing work in my area).

Wow, this rant got really long, sorry guys...

Ok, I am off the soapbox now.... NEXT...

[bellersley]

I totally agree with your points. However, my point is that when the public is told to call 911 for anything, regardless of how trivial it may seem, then they're made to feel like idiots by the calltakers, that person is less likely to call 911 again in the future.

A personal example. I called 911 for another impared driver who was going from shoulder to shoulder in heavy traffic and in very bad weather (snow/ice). The call taker told me to hang up and call a non-emerg number (which she wouldn't give me, saying she doesn't have time to do that). I didn't have the non-emerg number so I had to call 411 and go from there. As I was on the line with 411, the vehicle crashed into the center median. So, I hung up and called 911 again. I got the same calltaker. I told him that I had called about 2 minutes ago about the drunk driver and said that he had now crashed his car. Well, said calltaker said "Why didn't you call it in on the non-emerg number like I told you?" To that I just said "because I didn't have the number and you refused to give it to me, so now this guy has crashed his car because you were too lazy/stupid to do your job, are you sending help or does this guy's car have to explode?"

Yeah I was a bit harsh, but 911 is there for people to call when they need help. It's not there for the calltaker to give you attitude about what is/isn't an emergency. I realize that in some places, there is one dispatcher to answer the phone and radio, and often only 2 or 3 incoming 911 lines. This isn't the caller's fault, and they shouldn't be made to feel as though it is when someone calls in and really needs help.

I've also been blasted for calling 911 for someone stuck in an elevator. Sorry, but that is an emergency - what if the person was having panic attacks, or had a heart attack or something?

All I'm trying to say is that 911 is the universal number for getting help. Often people have no idea what the non-emerg number is for a given area. If a calltaker is going to get bitchy for someone calling about something trivial like an improperly parked car or whatever, then they're in the wrong line of work, and need to realize that the general public sees 911 as the contact point for police/fire/EMS for ANYTHING.

So yea. Original point... don't buy GMRS radios - educate the public about what 911 is and is not

[radio230]

Sorry bellersley, I should have said this in last post. I DO NOT agree with the dispatcher giving you attitude or "not having time" to give you the non-emergency number. I do this on a regular basis and I try not to give attitude to the callers. I have given attitude when someone has called 9-1-1 for their neighbors loud music, i mean, come on.... but anyway, the dispatcher on 9-1-1, if telling you to call a diffrent number, should at least GIVE you the number. I have actually transferred people from my 9-1-1 line to my non-emergency line. We don't like doing this becuase that call is still tying up a 9-1-1 trunk line coming into me, but as I said there are 2 incoming 9-1-1 line so in certain situatins( i.e. elderly caller from another state driving through town, or some other matter that may be urgent (but not an emergency) that cannot be handled quickly on 9-1-1) This allows me to open up me 9-1-1 system for another call, but still have the first caller on the line.

As far as your 2nd drunk driver example, to me, that is an emergency. My definition ot emergency is anything in progress, or that just happened, where ther is imminet danger to life or property. A drunk in heavy traffic and bad weahter would be an emergeny, on the other hand a drunk driver on a highway that is all but deserted in clear weather,although urgent, would not be an emergency worthy of 9-1-1 to me. Now, if I already had the info I needed to send units, I would do so and not make the caller call back to tall me the same thing, but I would also explain to them (attitude free ) to use another number for something like this in the future.

And when you called back he should have been less worried about why you never called back, but more worried about sending help. I agree 9-1-1 is for people how need help immediately, all others should refrain from abusing it.

I also agree teaching the public what is and is not an emergency where 9-1-1 should be used is critical. But as far not knowing the non-mergency number for an area. If it is something trivial, like you said an improperly parked car, then the caller should not be lazy and either use 4-1-1 (thats what it is there for) and get a phone book, the non emergency number numbers (at least around here) are always found on the 1st or 2nd page inside.

OK, the soapbox is open again....

[Will]

Dredges up the REACT GMRS thing of "reporting bird poop on the winshield".

For (real) public safety stay away from GMRS, REACT and RUG......... and FRS.

[nh7cy]

911 education should also include a list of non emergency numbers for surrounding departments and counties.

i keep my cellphone populated with the direct numbers for highway patrol, each station in san francisco, and marin county, and fd.

its actually quicker than dialing 911 in most cases and the call takers are less irratable.

as for the radio problem. find volunteers and educate them on radio use and disaster coordination. issue them, or have them get their own murs radios and use that for an emergency, or like what has been said here before, contract some local hams, im sure they'd be up to it.