Syntor X9000 Siren not working, PA works though? *** Updated

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:39 am

This has been working fine for the brief time its been installed. Now when I hit the "Siren" button the red light on the head unit doesnt turn on nor do any of the siren tones work. When I hit the PA button, the red indicator light turns on and the PA works fine. Same with the EXT RADIO function --- works fine. Any ideas? Did I messup some setting possibly?

George · Post by **George** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:35 am

Sounds like errors in programming to me...

Read the control head, make sure the buttons are there.

Read the radio and make sure the siren/PA option is selected.

There is a remote chance of a messed up processor in the siren box, but that is very unlikely.

George

Post by **akardam** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:51 am

First off, since the External Radio rebroadcast is a "tone" function of the siren, it shouldn't work unless the siren is in fact armed.

Hmm... it's possible that the red LED at the siren button position went out. You could try swapping the Siren/PA key positions in the head programming and test it.

With the siren disarmed, when you hit the various tone keys (Wail, Yelp, ExRadio, etc), does it show a change on the display? Similarily, when you hit the siren arm button, even if the LED doesn't come on, does it show a change on the display?

If it's showing changes on the display I'd think the programming is OK, so the uP in the amp that controls the siren tones could in fact be bad. ExRadio, though a "tone" as far as the programming is concerned, still uses the same circuitry as the PA, for audio, so I'm not surprised that if the PA works, ExRadio would too.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:10 am

Yeah when I hit the different siren buttons it they show up appropriately on the display. Also when I do hit the siren button and then hit wail or yelp nothing happens. I'll admit that I haven't went digging in the trunk quite yet. With this rain I'll run over to the station and take a look soon at the connections and fuses. I'll also try reprogramming the head to use a different button.

It did seem wierd that I could still do PA; I'm assuming the PA function is part of the siren box?

Post by **akardam** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:53 am

Yes, the amp provides for both Siren and PA functions.

Confirm that you can hit ExRad (and the display shows it), arm the siren (even if the LED doesn't come on), and then you hear the rebroadcasted audio?

Since I presume you're not getting an error code on powerup, I'm wondering if maybe there's a problem somewhere that's limiting current.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:06 am

If ExRd works, I'm wondering if something in the siren has released its magic smoke. In ExRd, the siren box merely provides amplification - the audio waveform is generated inside the radio. In Wail/Yelp/HiLo, the siren generates the tones then amplifies them.

A simple solution may be to grab a cheap 1185 off ePay and swap it out.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:05 am

I like tvsjr's idea of popping in a new unit. Its interesting that "it knows" that there is problem and it won't even light up the led anymore when I hit the button. I'm gonna head to the station in a couple hours and do some more hands on diagnosing.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:24 pm

Alrighty; The EXT RAD works just fine and broadcasts audio thru the 100w Dynamax speaker.

The LED does work for the Siren button; to turn on the EXT RAD I hit the EXT RAD button and then hit the SIREN button and the red LED lights up and it works normally. If I hit any siren tone or the manual button the SIREN LED turns off.

I think I got a bad siren box.

*** Anyone know if I can use either a HLN1185A or HLN1185B???

Thanks guys; happy new year.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:33 am

I don't know about the 1185A. I know the 1185B will work properly.

JAYMZ · Post by **JAYMZ** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:48 am

Any version of the 1185 should work for you. Obviously the newer the better, but if it works... go for it.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:23 pm

Alrighty; received an 1185 siren box from eBay and it does the same thing!

Same old problem. I did notice that sometimes the siren works. Sometimes now (with the old and replacement siren box) the siren will put out wail/yelp/hi-lo/airhorn tones. Then if you drive for a random amount of time it will shut off. I am now guessing there is something funny with the head unit. I might have spilled too much Pepsi on it over the years.

I will get a new head and also try reprogramming the siren button to be a different one on the head unit.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:29 pm

Have you tried swapping speakers? The 1185 is notoriously finicky about what sort of speaker it will tolerate - for instance, it rarely likes the Dynamax/MS100 models. PA is not as taxing on the speakers as siren... perhaps the amp is detecting something and turning itself off. I assume it never flashes the "SPKR SHORT" message, does it?

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:46 pm

correct; it never flashes "SPKR SHORT".

Odd, since I have used this speaker for a couple years with this siren unit. Maybe I should swap the contacts going to the speaker?

Mike B · Post by **Mike B** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:24 pm

The control head keypad is divided into Keypad Buttons (the 1-9, RCL, SQL and DEL buttons) and Indicator Buttons (the 6 buttons over the display). The EXRD (external radio) must be programmed on a Keypad Button for a Siren/PA option (there is no LED on a keypad button). The EXRD must be programmed on an Indicator Button for the Public Address only option (there is a LED with an indicator button).

Are you programming the Siren w/ Public Address (W269) or Public Address (W589) in RDPROG? W589 has no siren tones.

When in EXRD or PA mode the audio amplifier is in a linear analog mode with only 50 watts maximum output available. However, its a clean usable 50 watts that can amplify voice signals. When sending Siren tones you can get 100 watts of non-linear square wave source tones. This is 100 watts that cannot amplify voice signals correctly because the amplifier is not linear in siren tone mode. Aside from the idea of mixing siren tones with voice audio being silly, the amplifier does not support it anyway.

Since you are not getting any fail codes you do not have a siren internal jumper 8 setting problem or any power problem with the unswitched 5 volts.

Check your siren speaker pin out. Pins 20 and 35 are used for a 100 watt speaker.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... ml#x9k4246

Check and make sure R83 (3.48 K, 1%) is installed on the siren circuit board. It is only removed for the 130 watt dual speaker setups.

Check your supply voltage. A high-line supply condition (16.6 V) can cause up to a 30% power increase to the speaker. This might cause a problem that would only be noticed attempting full audio power 100 watt siren tones while it possibly lets the lower power voice amplifying mode work.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:49 pm

I have used this setup for at least two years without any problems. I will verify the supply voltage tomorrow. I have checked the siren speaker pin out and it does have that R83 resistor installed.

Its just odd that it only works for little bit and quits. I will try attaching a BP100 siren in the trunk as a temporary hookup and see if it gives me trouble.

I am unsure if temperature has a factor either. When the siren light did stay lit (siren button red light, "manual" mode), it would more frequently turn off just as I hit a bump but I think that was more coincidental.

Still need to get a head for this unit. I can't complain too much since its dated "1987 US Border Patrol"

Mike B · Post by **Mike B** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:06 pm

Check the large red and black leads on the X9k main cable and the Siren/PA cable. Sometimes they come unsoldered and cause all kinds of trouble. I had one where the red wire just pulled completely out of the main J1 connector with only a slight tug. Of course it had been driving me nuts with intermittent failures all during my vacation trip when I didn't have my soldering tools with me.

Also check any power wire crimps near the vehicle battery. They will eventually corrode and can become intermittent. Check your chassis ground wire connections for any problems.

Check the control head main cable connector and make sure its correctly seated and snapped in place.

An ohm meter will usually not find problems with bad crimps. This is because a bad crimp may only have trouble flowing relatively large amounts of current and an ohm meter only sources a very small amount of current. A volt meter might find them if there is a fair amount of current flowing in the wire. You just look for a voltage drop on the load side of a possible bad crimp. However, physical inspection works best.

I just had another thought. Some of the electrolytic capacitors in the head might be leaking. This can cause intermittent radio system wide resets that would keep reseting the Siren/PA. They can exhibit intermittent symptoms at first when they just start leaking and only exhibit easy to identify/typical behavior at the more advanced stages of leakage.
http://www.open.org/~blenderm/syntorx9k ... ml#ch_trbl

jmr061 · Post by **jmr061** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:26 am

Any update if you have corrected this issue?

Jason

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:30 pm

As an update, I finally had some time last weekend and could spare and hour.

I'm a little frustrated after rewiring and resoldering connections in the snow and intense cold. I'm almost ready to give up on this until the early summer. Anyways, after rewiring, I am very confident that its either the speaker or the radio. The wiring is eliminated as a threat.

Here is what it is doing now - when I start the car up after it sits for a little while, the siren works great. As I start to drive the siren light (no sound, the siren is in manual mode) turns off. I hit the button and the light comes back on. I drive and drive...the light turns off. Same game for another several miles. Next thing you know when I hit the siren button it doesn't come on at all.

Here is what I know: Voltage is good even at different RPM's. Tried two different siren boxes with the same results. Replaced wiring. When it works, it works--no matter if I have a different siren hooked up. When it doesn't wanna work, it doesn't. Resistor in the siren box is good. No leaky caps in there.

Here is what I still have to check: Verify that I used good technique with ground wire - is it crimped and soldered? Any loose or nasty wires in the connecter head?

The next time after driving for a while and the siren button doesn't even light up I'm pulling over to a parking lot and tugging on wires.

I'm so tempted to slam in an entirely independent siren system. I'm just irritated that my LIN3 money will have to go toward a damn siren.

****** UPDATE 3/8/2007 7:22AM EST******

Again, when I start my car up "fresh", the siren works great. After driving for about 5-10 minutes it stops working. The siren button won't even stay lit. I used the switch on the bottom of the head and powered it down. After leaving it off for about five minutes I powered it back up and the siren worked again. I suspect the control head; I'll try to disassemble it at work today.

****** UPDATE 3/14/2007 1:39PM EDT******

Okay, a coupe days ago I pulled apart the connector from the siren box to the radio unit (its sandwiched between the radio unit and the control head connector). I noticed that a purple wire was crushed in between the interior of the connector housing and the moisture seal. It looked pretty flattened. I played with it a little bit and stuffed it inside properly. I have drove the car many miles in the last 36hrs and I have not had one problem. I kinda hope this puts this issue to rest. Its odd how it worked perfectly fine for years until this recent install. Maybe I tugged on the cable just enough during the installed to break the connection.

****** UPDATE 3/17/2007 11:06PM EDT******

Still working good. I am pointing my finger at the crushed purple wire.