Speculate: How will public safety two-way radio evolve?

[Elroy Jetson]

With the continuing trend toward digital convergence in just about everything,
would you care to speculate as to what the public safety two-way radio and radio system of 10 years from now will be?


Will conventional two-way radio as we know it now (simplex or repeater operation) even exist in 10 or 20 years, outside of the amateur bands?


Will public safety trunking systems still follow the same general format they follow now? Radios sharing a pool of available channels, getting
their cues from one or more digital control channels, and talking in analog,
digital, or encrypted modes on those channels?

Or will it all go completely digital, more like a higher powered wi-fi network with conventional radios being totally replaced by a more generic
digital radio platform with a user-customizable user interface to fit the
needs of the application?

Will it be integrated into publicly accessible data networks, as just another
few workgroups on the network, or will the public safety network be its
own unique and separate network, not accessible to the public except
by gateways as required and controlled by the system administrators?


I tend to be a very forward-thinking individual. Back in the days when the
synthesized MX portable radio was the coolest new toy on the block, I
was already envisioning the day when a portable radio could include a
still or video digital camera and a color LCD display and it could send or
receive audio or video over the network. Some 20 years later, this
became commonplace.

But this...I'm having a hard time guessing where the future of public
safety communications is heading. Except that it must be as easy to
work with, if not easier, than it is today, from the perspective of the
officer or radio user in the field.


Elroy

[ScannerDan]

WoW, a blast from the past. Good to see a post from ya again.

Dan..

[escomm]

With the continuing trend toward digital convergence in just about everything,
would you care to speculate as to what the public safety two-way radio and radio system of 10 years from now will be?

Just like it is today: overpriced and underperforming

Will conventional two-way radio as we know it now (simplex or repeater operation) even exist in 10 or 20 years, outside of the amateur bands?

Absolutely. Businesses that do not rely on the taxpayers for capital costs cannot justify the cost of digital comms when they can buy 5 analog radios for the same price. Did you know you could build out a 10 or 14 channel LTR system for the same cost as a single Quantar? And pay up on a year's site rental too??

Will public safety trunking systems still follow the same general format they follow now? Radios sharing a pool of available channels, getting
their cues from one or more digital control channels, and talking in analog,
digital, or encrypted modes on those channels?

Are you suggesting the wheel be reinvented? Think about this. Nothing has replaced LTR trunking in 20 years. Why? Because it works.

Or will it all go completely digital, more like a higher powered wi-fi network with conventional radios being totally replaced by a more generic
digital radio platform with a user-customizable user interface to fit the
needs of the application?

Homeland security dollars will run out long before this happens.

Will it be integrated into publicly accessible data networks, as just another
few workgroups on the network, or will the public safety network be its
own unique and separate network, not accessible to the public except
by gateways as required and controlled by the system administrators?

Uh, mission critical and public access are mutually exclusive terms.

I tend to be a very forward-thinking individual. Back in the days when the
synthesized MX portable radio was the coolest new toy on the block, I
was already envisioning the day when a portable radio could include a
still or video digital camera and a color LCD display and it could send or
receive audio or video over the network. Some 20 years later, this
became commonplace.

The analog two-way radio has not evolved much from your day of the MX. You can't fix something that isn't broken. You can't reinvent the wheel. The government will always find ways to squander away taxpayer dollars. Private entities that do not have unlimited flows of someone else's money see the light. This is why there are so few private P25 systems, and so many public systems.

Ask yourself this: What are all of these agencies going to do five to ten years down the road, when their subscriber units need to be replaced, and Mr. Chertoff is not there to sign a blank check?

LAPD is in this exact predicament right now. They need $75 million to replace their obsolete subscriber units, but the City of LA is already running a deficit.

[Bruce1807]

the next generation from Motorola for PS will be TDMA like Tetra
2 channels for 1 frequency.

[escomm]

the next generation from Motorola for PS will be TDMA like Tetra
2 channels for 1 frequency.

I doubt that, since the FCC is considering a move to go straight to 6.25KHz channel spacing instead a step 12.5KHz (I believe the date is 2013 now), and in all actuality will probably end up at 6.25KHz within the next 10 years regardless.

[Bruce1807]

Came out at the last MTUG meeting.
I will try and post the slide

[Bruce1807]

Came out at the last MTUG meeting.
From the Systems and Products Update session

Continuous Platform Evolution

ASTRO 25 Foundation (Project 25 IVD)
High Performance Data

Next Generation Platform Enhancements
Network Security
Network Management
Data Solutions
Increased Spectrum Efficiency (6.25e)
2:1 TDMA in 12.5 kHz channel
Dynamic Dual Mode (FDMA/TDMA)
Future Phase 2 Standards

[escomm]

Yes but the whole point of timeslotting is defeated if the FCC caves in and goes to 6.25

It will also be interesting to see how the codecs perform when the bandwidth is cut in half

[Bruce1807]

MTUG will be interesting in Baltimore this year to see which way they are going.

[jhooten]

Computer in the trunk connected with a WIFI like network to handle Voice, data, Video. All encrypted.

[wavetar]

The fact that Motorola is investing heavily in their WiMAX portfolio (Canopy, MotoMesh, etc) and expect it to surpass LMR earnings within a few years says plenty. Cellular companies expect to be providing 150Mbps wireless data rates in 5-7 years. The possibilities are limitless once the infrastructure is in place to support them. That said, I don't expect things to be all that different in 10 years. Many current systems being built will still be struggling with their ROI, I suspect. Give it 20, and things will be starting to look very unfamiliar to us. Even then, our local landscaping company up the road will still be using their Mocom-70 radios!

Todd

[mr.syntrx]

The distant future? For large systems, it'll be spread spectrum. Code division and similar technologies.

Mobile phone systems provide a fairly good indication of what's ahead. At the moment, two way radio is at about at the D-AMPS stage of cellular development, or the early GSM days if you follow what's happening in Europe.

[N4DES]

The distant future? For large systems, it'll be spread spectrum. Code division and similar technologies.

I agree. The current push is for wide-band lower cost infrastructure and handsets, typically what we see in the CDMA arena.

If Motorola can come out with iDEN/CDMA handsets that are ruggedized there is no reason why PS couldn't use the same type equipment in our applications.

[Bruce1807]

i325is and the i580 iDEN clamshell pretty well meet the standard
well on the iden anyway

[w8cmi]

How about two way radios integrated into (future) existing commercial ventures?

A digital radio in a police car that, in addition to having "private" public safety frequencies, uses Nextel or AT&T's cellular network to send pictures, data, video, etc. across the world.

Uploading a mug shot or a crime scene photo from on site and transmitting that to the state BCI lab and to neighboring jurisdictions.

Being able to take a convienence store securitry video or a digital pic captured on a private citizen's cell phone and send it back to headquarters immediately.

The procedural move is to bypass the dispatcher on critical information and provide all data directly to the police officer, firefighter, or paramedic inside their vehicle on the street. That can include driver's license information, building plans for a high rise, poison control information, 9-1-1 call data, et. al.

I agree that Federal dollars will soon dry up, and prospects of building a separate infrastructure for private government radio systems will go away too. I think you'll see partnerships -- profitable and workable for both sides -- between government agencies, commercial "business band" users and the commercial common carriers.

Rick

[mr.syntrx]

All of the HSD features you mentioned will be in the next iteration of the TETRA specification, TETRA Advanced Packet Service (TAPS), so that traffic stay on private networks.

Private networks have the following significant advantages over commercial/joint networks:

* Administrative control of the network stays with the agencies who use it, not some company looking after its shareholders, or a company who is likely to be bought out by incompatible interests (very important if the network is used for anything related to national security.)

For example, a few years ago the Australian Department of Defence went halves with Optus in the costs of a new Loral LS-1300 comms satellite, Optus C1, which contains military UHF, L-band, X-band and Ka-band SATCOM equipment as well as civilian Ku and C band TV transponders. Optus was subsequently bought by SingTel, Singapore's incumbent telco, which is (or was) headed by a former very senior south east Asian military official.

* Higher security, than is possible on public networks, such as BCCH encryption to thwart traffic analysis

* Isolation from commercial networks - if the commercial system dies, the private system won't necessarily go the same way

* Congestion due to public usage. This is a big one!

* Assured coverage and capacity, based on operational planning (not only by actual demand)

* Transportable infrastructure to incidents at very short notice, without requiring the cooperation (and delays) of involving other organisations such as phone carriers

* The ability to kill a subscriber which is interfering, lost or captured by your adversaries (terrorists, organised crime, Johnny Smackhead)

[escomm]

BTW, the Feds already have a nationwide Iden network... Nextel

[Victor Xray]

Picture this -

A large metro city deploys their very own CDMA EV-DO Rev A data network at 700Mhz. Identical infrastructure to Sprint or Verizon, but owned solely by the City.

Data network is used for anything: mobile MDCs, desk and field work, real-time video, and (gasp) voice... VoIP to PSTN, VoIP between users, and VoIP to their legacy trunked radio system a la an ACU2000.

The mobile devices can be small PDAs or Blackberries with a PTT application and the ability to choose any talkgroup or conventional channel (unlimited channel capacity).



The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

[Bruce1807]

How long before a MESH phone is released on 4.9
the voip is there, the mesh is there .
it just needs to go in one package.

[Johnny Galaga]

Does all this mean that eventually we won't be able to listen to the cops and firefighters on the scanner?

[escomm]

Picture this -

A large metro city deploys their very own CDMA EV-DO Rev A data network at 700Mhz. Identical infrastructure to Sprint or Verizon, but owned solely by the City.

Data network is used for anything: mobile MDCs, desk and field work, real-time video, and (gasp) voice... VoIP to PSTN, VoIP between users, and VoIP to their legacy trunked radio system a la an ACU2000.

The mobile devices can be small PDAs or Blackberries with a PTT application and the ability to choose any talkgroup or conventional channel (unlimited channel capacity).



The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

At what cost, though?

[Victor Xray]

The taxpayers, so cost is not an issue.

[Victor Xray]

Does all this mean that eventually we won't be able to listen to the cops and firefighters on the scanner?

That's (basically) true for places today like San Antonio [ProVoice+ESK]. It just depends on where you live and how rich & technically-inclined your regional government is.

I'm sure there will be a day when almost every metro public safety is un-scannable, but that will be a long long time from now. By then, we'll all be grumpy old hams anyway who are more interested in 40m nets and discussing urinal dysfunctions than listening to the po-po on a scanner.

[mr.syntrx]

Picture this -

A large metro city deploys their very own CDMA EV-DO Rev A data network at 700Mhz. Identical infrastructure to Sprint or Verizon, but owned solely by the City.

Data network is used for anything: mobile MDCs, desk and field work, real-time video, and (gasp) voice... VoIP to PSTN, VoIP between users, and VoIP to their legacy trunked radio system a la an ACU2000.

The mobile devices can be small PDAs or Blackberries with a PTT application and the ability to choose any talkgroup or conventional channel (unlimited channel capacity).



The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

I'd hate to work in public safety in that city.

[mr.syntrx]

Does all this mean that eventually we won't be able to listen to the cops and firefighters on the scanner?

That's (basically) true for places today like San Antonio [ProVoice+ESK]. It just depends on where you live and how rich & technically-inclined your regional government is.

I'm sure there will be a day when almost every metro public safety is un-scannable, but that will be a long long time from now. By then, we'll all be grumpy old hams anyway who are more interested in 40m nets and discussing urinal dysfunctions than listening to the po-po on a scanner.

Police, fire and ambulance in my town use encrypted ASTRO, and for the latter two agencies it was a direct result of someone streaming their audio on the Internet. Before I moved here I thought "this is going to suck, I can't listen to anything on the scanner." I got used to not listening to that stuff very quickly though, and it doesn't really bother me nowadays.

[wavetar]

Picture this -

A large metro city deploys their very own CDMA EV-DO Rev A data network at 700Mhz. Identical infrastructure to Sprint or Verizon, but owned solely by the City.

Data network is used for anything: mobile MDCs, desk and field work, real-time video, and (gasp) voice... VoIP to PSTN, VoIP between users, and VoIP to their legacy trunked radio system a la an ACU2000.

The mobile devices can be small PDAs or Blackberries with a PTT application and the ability to choose any talkgroup or conventional channel (unlimited channel capacity).



The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

I'd hate to work in public safety in that city.

Why? If it's privately owned & properly engineered & maintained, it would kick @ss. Of course, if the penny pinchers get involved, any system can quickly go down the toilet (a la many Astro systems in existence). It's not the technology itself which is at fault, it's the implementation.

Todd

[Victor Xray]

And just a reminder; the data network in my scenario is not a replacement for the City's legacy TRS. Front line responders will continue to use their current radios. But with seamless interop between VoIP and RoIP, TONS more applications & features on the PDAs than radios, and heavy use by the City's Admins & Execs (think dept budget planning), well, it's not unrealistic to envision a slow and gradual migration for all users.

[mr.syntrx]

Picture this -

A large metro city deploys their very own CDMA EV-DO Rev A data network at 700Mhz. Identical infrastructure to Sprint or Verizon, but owned solely by the City.

Data network is used for anything: mobile MDCs, desk and field work, real-time video, and (gasp) voice... VoIP to PSTN, VoIP between users, and VoIP to their legacy trunked radio system a la an ACU2000.

The mobile devices can be small PDAs or Blackberries with a PTT application and the ability to choose any talkgroup or conventional channel (unlimited channel capacity).



The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

I'd hate to work in public safety in that city.

Why? If it's privately owned & properly engineered & maintained, it would kick @ss. Of course, if the penny pinchers get involved, any system can quickly go down the toilet (a la many Astro systems in existence). It's not the technology itself which is at fault, it's the implementation.

Todd

I initially read the post with the view that the network was going to be used for everything - voice, data, the works, which would be bad. When VX clarified it, I see it's actually pretty cool.

I had horrible flashbacks to that NexGen stuff Garland, TX had in mind ages ago. They bought (or were gonna buy) some somewhat risky (to say the least) 2.4GHz unlicensed mesh network a while back for data and voice dispatch, as I recall.

If the penny pinchers get involved, a network of that type has a much greater potential to go down the shitter than a P25 network, due to it being a lot more infrastructure intensive.

VX: The city isnt New York is it?

[kd5wyu]

The above futuristic vision coming online late this year or early next. Do your homework to figure out the City.

Hey VX, how many guesses do we get?

It can only be the city whose name rhymes with a cleaning agent or is it their immediate neighbors to the north? Hmmm...either's taxpayers have the scratch to do something like that.

Sorry, I'll get my coat now.
-b-

[escomm]

The taxpayers, so cost is not an issue.

Is that tongue in cheek??