A few KVL 3011 questions... And DES question...

[kb0nly]

First question, can you read the key from a current radio to allow programming to another radio? That is, if you don't know what the key is can it be read from an existing radio and then written to the new unit.

The reason i ask is i was contacted by a company that has DES in their Saber's and Spectra's to protect customer info when they have to discuss names and phone numbers, etc. At least that's the reason they gave me. They don't know the key that was loaded into the radios, and the local "bend over and" Motorola shop is charging them full service call price every time a radio loses it's key. Of course they are not willing to divulge that info as well, though they should to the owner of the radios.

So i am thinking of two choices, read an existing radio to duplicate, or just create a new key and dump it in all the radios. From some of the posts i have read it sounds like you can read the key from an existing radio to reprogram others but the KVL won't display the actual key content, that's fine as long as it will load another radio.

The other question is does the KVL save keys, if so how many and how are they accessed? Numbered memory locations or? Then i could read one radio that is working and save, and every time its needed just load from memory and reprogram without having to read another radio.

Also, i take it that a Saber II or III can not be set for infinite key retention? They keep losing the key, i assume because they pull the battery off for too long or something. I moved up to Sabers myself to learn the ins and outs of programming them so i can help, they are getting more common around here with them showing up cheap on the used market.

One last thing, anyone know a source for the 3011 manual? A copy, .pdf, scans of each page, anything! I can't find any mention of a manual for them.

[tvsjr]

1. No, you can't read the key out... this violates FIPS 140-2 and one of the fundamental tenets of such encryption.

2. My T3011DX will store 16 keys, 0-9, A-F. The keyloader is like a regular radio... it will lose keys if left without battery power.

3. There's no software option for IKR on the analog Saber. I don't believe it's an option via hardware either, but I know less about those radios than I do about newer stuff.

[batdude]

regular (non-astro) sabers cannot hold the key indefinately


tell your customer to get on ebay and buy a 3011 AX/BX loader for $100 or less

they don't need a CX or DX loader for plain jane sabers.


typical M shop crap....they probably have loaded their radios with a TEST key.... which isn't secure for anything....and charging a full service call is ridiculous for re-keying a radio.



doug

[mancow]

I bought a 3011DX on ebay with no battery and it still had keys in it. I've never had one lose a key no matter how long it has sat without the battery. I don't know if it's a non volitile memory system or whether there's a small battery in there.

[kb0nly]

Ok, well that takes care of some questions! Thanks for the quick responses.

I'm starting to think it will be easier to just reload a new key into all the radios they own and then they know what it is and can maintain it themselves if they want. I'm planning on spending out of my own pocket to get a keyloader to start, and then they can buy one if they want after i learn it and in turn teach them how to.

I have been trying to snag an AX or BX thinking it would be cheaper, but as of yet they have been going for more than i want to pay for one!

Can the AX or BX be upgraded later if needed to a CX or DX? I know from past discussions on here a CX can be upgraded to a DX by replacing the firmware and i think an EEprom has to be changed to.

[kb0nly]

Doesn't it retain the keys in the EEProm inside?

[kb0nly]

Does anyone know what the current requirement is on this keyloader? I was thinking of building a battery eliminator for it if i can't find a decent/cheap MX300 battery to power it.

Don't need a charger, thankfully my analyzer came with a MX300 cup.

[mancow]

I'm not sure of the current but I once gutted an old MX battery and soldered in a 9V battery snap. I made a foam insert with a slot for the 9 volt and left the bottom sawed off the battery.

It worked just fine but it cooked the 9V fairly fast if left on until time out every time it was used.

With the few times I needed the KVL it was an easy and cheap way to get around buying a regular battery.

[kb0nly]

I was thinking of something similar mancow, i was going to build an eliminator like i did for other radios i work on/own.

Just cut and gut an old battery and build in a fixed voltage regulator and reverse polarity protection. I build them with interchangeable pigtails, alligator clips to source power from anywhere, cigarette lighter plug for mobile use, etc.

Just thought that maybe since the keyloader will spend most of its life on the test bench i would build one with a wall wart adapter powering the regulator, then i could even put a panel mount power jack in the side of the battery shell, but i don't have any info on how much of a supply would be needed. I have some nice 15v 1amp adapters i could make use of, i might even have an old 2-3amp laptop or printer power adapter that's useable, don't even remember what it came off of.

Anywho, snagged a CX model on ebay tonight for $62, didn't think that was too bad. The seller said he powered it up with an MX300 battery and it said 1 Ready on the display. I also have the DX Eprom image so i could upgrade it.

[apco25]

Just buy the small MX battery. Why go through all the work to make eliminator. The KVL's last a long time on a single charge even with using the tiny low cap MX battery.

You can find extremely cheap NOS MX/STX slow or rapid chargers on ebay these days $5-10 bucks typically.

$28 for a 1400mah batteryzone batt new.

Just some ideas.

[kb0nly]

I don't need a charger, thankfully i have a cup for the MX300 series with my Alexander optimizer so i can just use that to charge.

However, since most of the time it will be sitting on the work table i'm going to build an eliminator to power it from the bench supply. Not a lot of work to make them, i can gut a battery and build one in 10-15 minutes, i built half a dozen of them tonight out of Saber batteries, and i have built batches of them from dead MT1000 batteries.

Just a good accessory to have around. I got offered some batteries for the cost of shipping so i will go from there.

I DO still want to find a manual for the T3011, would be nice to have the documentation for it on hand. Anyone?

[kb0nly]

I edited the title to hopefully get an answer to related question.

What would one expect to pay for a used DES or DES/XL module for a Saber? I assume that a I, II, and III all use the same module.

Figured if anyone could give me a good estimate it would be you guys!

[AEC]

The part number for the original DES-XL module was: NTN5835A, the replacement number(retrofit) is: NTN4714A/NTN1071A.

The bypass number is: NTN4720A

Ebay was trying to pawn them off for $100.00 for the retrofit, but street value is a lot less......like $30-$40.


Here's a rundown on modules (analog Sabers only)

NTN5832A: DVP

NTN5833A: DES

NTN5835A: DES-XL

NTN1073A: DVP-XL

NTN1075A: DVI-XL (export)

NTN5763A/NTN1081A: DES-XL OTAR

NTN5762B: DES OTAR

NTN5761A: DVP-XL OTAR

That should give you a heads-up as to what to look for.


Enterprize.....One to beam up!

[kb0nly]

So $30-$40 for a DES or DES-XL should be a reasonable price to work by then?

And thanks for the list! Very helpful to have when shopping around.

[AEC]

Yes in deed, if you see them over the $50.00 mark, they are not current with market demands, they are losing value as analog is losing out to digital daily as you well know, and the need for analog secure modules is following suit.

I'd be willing to pay $50.00 for a sealed bag DES-XL module, but never for a pull since operation can't be verified before you hand over the $$.

As for the secure module list, that's what we're here for; to help each other, it was my pleasure.

Happy holidays!


Enterprize.....One to beam up!

[Motradio]

kb0nly

Question for you did you ever find out if a 3011BX can be upgraded to the 3011DX with the prom image?

I just got a 3011BX a couple of weeks ago just to play with it and a couple of sys sabers I got. Lots to learn about the sabers, may have wasted a bunch of $$$ on a pair of VHF's that won't do the 144mhz range. UHF seem OK, I got lucky with them. More to learn on the sabers, Rss is ugly too.

By the way my KVL came with an adapter that adapts a regular Saber battery to the MX batter. I did pick up a MX battery new for about $35 from Aloha battery.

Lastly any online guide to how the KVL works?

BTW, Thanks for all the other comments and posts

Sandy

[kb0nly]

It sounds as if a BX can be upgraded, but you have to replace both the firmware Eprom and the EEprom since the CX and DX have a larger EEprom.

Anyone that knows otherwise please post! I dug through old posts on here for a couple hours and that seems to be the jist of it since the upgrade kit came with the firmware Eprom and a replacement EEprom, but on the CX you only need to replace the firmware since it already has the larger EEprom.

I saw one on ebay that had an adapter on it, i was wondering which battery it adapted it to. That would be a NICE item to have. After all, if your using Sabers that's one less battery to maintain since you can use any Saber battery you have on hand. Is there a part number on that adapter? I doubt its still available from Moto, but a part number might help tracking one down!

The Batlabs site has a bit of info on how to get it up and running and set a key, but i for one sure would like to have the actual manual or at least a copy, electronic or photocopied, for this KVL. A couple manual numbers were suggested to me, i tried them at MOL and MyRadioMall, and even called Moto, but they all said NLA!

[Motradio]

Might be more work to update to the DX then it's worth if it works on the radios I have. The Adapter has no part numbers on it, but I'll bet it was for originally for the MX radios to use Saber batts, just works fine on the KVL too.

This is the link to the fellow selling the KVL that had the adapter, I paid $18 for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MOTOROLA-SABER-SECU ... dZViewItem

Shoot him an email question if you want one...

Yes, a manual would be nice, but I have not seen one either.

Sandy

[kb0nly]

That's the one i figured your were talking about, i watched that auction. I'm going to contact him and see if by chance he has any more adapters.

The manuals for these are rare i guess!

[kb0nly]

KVL Manuals! Here is the info i was able to get from Moto today. If it's not shown then its not available. I didn't ask about the 3020 manuals.

6881074E45
T3011BX DES KVL

6881090E20
T3011DX DES/DES-XL KVL

6881090E60
MAN ISTR KVL RETROFIT CX-DX

6881060E35
MANUAL, SERV DVP T3010BX/AX

6881090E30
T3010DX DVP KVL

6881074E55
MANUAL, SERV DVP-XL T3014BX

6881090E35
T3014DX SVP-XL KVL

6881090E40
T301DX DVI-XL SUPV KVL

[Alpha87A]

I just bought a T3011AX DES DES/XL key loader and I am wondering if I might have been too hasty in buying it. I was hoping to be able to use it to set up DES/XL on a pair of Systems Sabers as well as a Saber III. I have not received the KVL yet so I can't provide any more information about it. When I bought it I went on the assumption that since it had an ID tag that indicated DES DES/XL, that it would work on my Systems Sabers. Assuming that the KVL is completely original what kind of results can I expect?

Thank you

[kb0nly]

The 3011 can be upgraded easily to a DX model with little work. Basically you just burn a new firmware Eprom and install a serial eeprom that is used by the KVL as memory.

Takes minutes to open it up and do if you have the right equipment.

[Alpha87A]

Since I don't have the needed equiptment where can I go to pay someone to perform this service? Also will the 3011AX be useable on a Saber II or III with out the DX eprom?

The 3011 can be upgraded easily to a DX model with little work. Basically you just burn a new firmware Eprom and install a serial eeprom that is used by the KVL as memory.

Takes minutes to open it up and do if you have the right equipment.

[4n6inv]

I have the manuals for the CX and DX versions. There's not a whole lot to them (Mabe 50 pages), but I'll be happy to copy them for someone to scan and put on line when I get back in the US next Saturday. PM me if interested. I've also done MANY upgrades from A or B to DX, and CX to DX. If you're upgrading from A or B version, you have to replace the serial EEPROM from a 24X2 to a 24X16. The serial EEPROM holds the keys. And no; the keyloader doesn't lose it's info if you have the battery disconnected. I have actually been able to copy the keys from on EEPROM to another using an EPROM programmer. I found that out accidentally when I had a glitch during an upgrade.