MURS with APCO 25 permitted?

poser · Post by **poser** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:03 pm

Is APCO 25 permitted on MURS? (with the 2 Watt rule in effect)

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:56 pm

A MURS transmitter may use any of: A1D, A2B, A2D, A3E, F2B, F1D, F2D, F3E, and G3E emissions. 47 C.F.R. sec. 95.631(j). Someone correct me if needed, but I believe P25 CAI for voice is F1E. If that is so, it would appear unauthorized on MURS.

Jim1348 · Post by **Jim1348** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:58 pm

I concur, no APCO P25 action on MURS.

95.631 Emission types.

* * * * *

(j) A MURS transmitter must transmit only emission types
A1D, A2B, A2D, A3E, F2B, F1D, F2D, F3E, G3E. Emission types A3E, F3E
and G3E include selective calling or tone-operated squelch tones to
establish or continue voice communications. MURS transmitters are
prohibited from transmitting in the continuous carrier mode.

Designator Examples
The new International Telecommunication Union (ITU) emission designators must be used in place of the old designators. The following provides samples of the corresponding new ITU designators for the most commonly used emission designators:
Description Old New
Frequency modulated (FM) voice 20F3 20K0F3E
Frequency modulated (FM) voice 13.6F3 13K6F3E
Frequency modulated digitized voice 20F3Y 20K0F1E
Frequency modulated digitized non-voice 20F9Y 20K0F1D
Amplitude modulated single sideband voice 3A3J 3K00J3E
Amplitude modulated (AM) voice 8A3 8K00A3E

The final documents establishing the Project 25 Standard were signed in Aug. 1995. The basic characteristics of Project 25 radios are these:

Phase I—Emission designator 8K10F1E (C4FM, compatible four-level frequency modulation) in a 12.5 kHz channel.

Phase II—Emission designator of 5K76G1E (CQPSK, compatible quadrature phase shift keying) in a 6.25 kHz channel.

Common receiver for both C4FM and CQPSK to ensure full interoperability.

poser · Post by **poser** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:49 pm

Thanks. Guess I can't have any fun as a non Ham, though none other of my friends are willing to join in

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:01 pm

Sure you can! No rules against analog. There's quite a few people up here using IMBE on MURS - not that I'm condoning it, but it's like peeing in the snow. Fun to do, just don't get caught.

I was under the impression that the only rules were 2w ERP - and no continious stand-alone transmitters (including repeaters).

n1das · Post by **n1das** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:22 pm

Sure you can! No rules against analog. There's quite a few people up here using IMBE on MURS - not that I'm condoning it, but it's like peeing in the snow. Fun to do, just don't get caught.

I was under the impression that the only rules were 2w ERP - and no continious stand-alone transmitters (including repeaters).

There's actually more to it than that. The latest MURS rules (effective November 2002) specifically phase out the use of Part 90 equipment on MURS. After the November date (when the rule changes took effect), MURS transceivers must be specifically type accepted for Part 95 as MURS equipment. Older Part 90 gear meeting all technical specs (Tx power, bandwidth, etc.) is grandfathered and need not be re-certificated for Part 95 in addition to it's original Part 90 approval. The problem now is that the rules have been made so restrictive that there is virtually no new MURS-specifc equipment available on the market. To say squeaky-clean and legal on MURS, you have to use older Part 90 equipment that was type accepted before the November 2002 cutoff date.

Motorola was one of the commenters in the NPRM proceedings. IIRC, it was /\/\ that pushed for this. Motorola really doesn't want their stuff showing up on the used market for use in Part 95 services even though their equipment meets (and more than meets) all technical specs.

I don't like it either but that's the way it is.

Post by **escomm** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:43 am

Rayjk110 wrote:Sure you can! No rules against analog.

47 CFR Part 95 says otherwise

ArmsonOeg · Post by **ArmsonOeg** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:46 am

Looks like sending a (Non) voice Astro digital MDC type Message would be ok, am i correct?

(j) A MURS transmitter must transmit only emission types
A1D, A2B, A2D, A3E, F2B, F1D, F2D, F3E, G3E. Emission types A3E, F3E
and G3E include selective calling or tone-operated squelch tones to
establish or continue voice communications. MURS transmitters are
prohibited from transmitting in the continuous carrier mode.

Designator Examples
The new International Telecommunication Union (ITU) emission designators must be used in place of the old designators. The following provides samples of the corresponding new ITU designators for the most commonly used emission designators:
Description Old New
Frequency modulated (FM) voice 20F3 20K0F3E
Frequency modulated (FM) voice 13.6F3 13K6F3E
Frequency modulated digitized voice 20F3Y 20K0F1E
Frequency modulated digitized non-voice 20F9Y 20K0F1D

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:07 am

All of the above not withstanding, you could coordinate a quadruple homicide in the clear on MURS and not get caught. I wouldn't be too worried about getting busted by the radio police for using Astro.

Terry_Glover · Post by **Terry_Glover** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:55 am

nmfire10 wrote:All of the above not withstanding, you could coordinate a quadruple homicide in the clear on MURS and not get caught. I wouldn't be too worried about getting busted by the radio police for using Astro.

The question asked by poser on Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:03 pm was;

"Is APCO 25 permitted on MURS? (with the 2 Watt rule in effect)"

Fact is, the answer is no.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:52 am

Yes, I know. Hence the beginning of my statement was "All of the above not withstanding....."

Rayjk110 · Post by **Rayjk110** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:03 am

nmfire10 wrote: ... I wouldn't be too worried about getting busted by the radio police for using Astro..[on murs]..

That's pretty much what my point was ...

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:55 am

I could probably install a cross-band FRS-MURS encrypted astro repeater on our tower and nobody would be the wiser.

Post by **escomm** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:30 pm

nmfire10 wrote:I could probably install a cross-band FRS-MURS encrypted astro repeater on our tower and nobody would be the wiser.

OK Buddy, are you going to pay for the NALs and forfeitures that come as a result of your flawed advice?

If not, it's probably not best to suggest that violating FCC rules is OK. Especially on a public internet forum.

WCHija · Post by **WCHija** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:53 pm

So I am still not clear, can we use XTS radios on MURS channels if we use low (2 watts) power and are not in ASTRO mode?

Wicho · Post by **Wicho** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:11 pm

Can you do it? Yes. Just like you can speed on the freeway.

Should you do it? No

Is it legal? NO.

WCHija wrote:So I am still not clear, can we use XTS radios on MURS channels if we use low (2 watts) power and are not in ASTRO mode?

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:30 pm

WCHija wrote:So I am still not clear, can we use XTS radios on MURS channels if we use low (2 watts) power and are not in ASTRO mode?

I read quite a while ago that any Part 90 radio type accepted before 2002, yes you can. If it was type accepted after 2002 no you can't use it.

WCHija · Post by **WCHija** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:36 pm

Anyone know when the XTS5000s were type accepted?

N4DES · Post by **N4DES** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:39 pm

I don't own one, but you can type in the # here..

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/rep ... Search.cfm

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:29 am

escomm wrote:
nmfire10 wrote:I could probably install a cross-band FRS-MURS encrypted astro repeater on our tower and nobody would be the wiser.
OK Buddy, are you going to pay for the NALs and forfeitures that come as a result of your flawed advice?

If not, it's probably not best to suggest that violating FCC rules is OK. Especially on a public internet forum.

Calm down, it is called sarcasm.

Wicho · Post by **Wicho** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:37 am

04/03/03, which is what I based my answer on. But in retrospect, I only have UHF ones - could it be that a VHF one was type accepted earlier?

WCHija wrote:Anyone know when the XTS5000s were type accepted?

Post by **escomm** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:14 am

nmfire10 wrote:
escomm wrote:
nmfire10 wrote:I could probably install a cross-band FRS-MURS encrypted astro repeater on our tower and nobody would be the wiser.
OK Buddy, are you going to pay for the NALs and forfeitures that come as a result of your flawed advice?

If not, it's probably not best to suggest that violating FCC rules is OK. Especially on a public internet forum.
Calm down, it is called sarcasm.

Last time I checked the FCC's rules of procedure, sarcasm was not an affirmative defense.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:24 pm

escomm wrote:Last time I checked the FCC's rules of procedure, sarcasm was not an affirmative defense.

Besides the fact that this last statement actually makes no sense anyway, what part of this are you not understanding? You are the only one on this forum that doesn't get it... it was sarcasm. That means not serious. Which means you don't need to point out over and over that it isn't right.

Post by **HumHead** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:16 pm

Well, since it looks like the original poster's question has long since been answered, and a couple of folks are taking this thread in a completely non-productive direction, I guess it's time to lock this one.