Radio Over IP using quantar, DIU 3000, and IP-223. Any Help?

[randymince]

I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with configuring a Quantar Repeater and DIU3000 to work in conjunction with an IP-223? Currently there are 15 Quantars matched with a DIU, with the encryption module, that we are trying to interface to IP-223's on our radio infastructure. Before my colleague and I dive off head first into programming all three components I was just curious if anybody had seen this scenario before and could maybe offer up some friendly advice. I am aware of how everything "should" work, but we all know how that works. I didn't want to jump to far into specifics right off the bat, but depending on the response I will be more than glad to share what we have so far.

[FMROB]

I havn't been able to use any of this ROIP equipment yet, however, I hope to use two of the JPS NXU2's very soon for a simulcast style project. In either case the VEGA equipment seems very pricey. Tessco sells the JPS NXU2 for about 600.00 each, and it looks the vega is about 1,200.00 each. They appear to do the same thing. You may want to check it out.

Also, everyone I talk to about ROIP/VOIP seems to talk about QOS (quality of service) issues involving system latency and network reliability. There isnt really any full blown, decisive info of the ROIP realm. However, the network to which you send the info over needs to be fast and reliable. If you are using the internet, cable or fiber should be used. The NXU, and it appears the vegas can be set to talk to each other over a lan/wan. Here is another interesting question, static or dynamic IP. With our local cable provider the IP addres chages every so often. So I believe that the master unit needs to be accessible to change the info so it can find the remote client over the internet. Unless your ISP can provide you a static IP, you may need to investigate some software or server that provides it third party.

Good Luck. Please let us know how you make it. Not to much info on batlabs on this topic.... Rob

[mr.syntrx]

Also, everyone I talk to about ROIP/VOIP seems to talk about QOS (quality of service) issues involving system latency and network reliability. There isnt really any full blown, decisive info of the ROIP realm. However, the network to which you send the info over needs to be fast and reliable. If you are using the internet, cable or fiber should be used.

For public safety purposes, I wouldn't recommend using the Internet at all. With ADSL or cable, you still have to deal with the high contention ratios imposed by your ISP (especially on consumer and small business broadband connections), and you have no control over QoS of the network between your two endpoints. The last mile connectivity you use is a very small part of the total equation.

Microwave, frame relay, PRI or commercial private IP over MPLS all the way, with a good SLA (no less than 5 nines) if you use a commercial network.

[nmfire10]

This should apply to just about anything public safety, not just roIP. Anyone who uses a consumer internet connection (ADSL/Cable) for life safety communications should be flogged over and over with large fish.

[randymince]

As far as bandwidth it will be through a local lan running over fiber. As far as the ip scheme it will be dynamic. I was more interested in the actual programming of the quantar to diu. I think we are on the right track, just wanted to know if anybody had configured a diu connected to a quantar. There are 15 Quantar repeaters each with a diu/ip-223 setup. I will keep everybody updated on the status.

[/\/\y 2 cents]

IP223 and NXU2 work very poorly over anything but a private LAN/WAN. Gaps in audio because of dropped packets, collisions, etc. I know I have bought, tested and trashed (3) of each. They also do not support inherent multicast, meaning you will have to buy a multicast iP address from your packet access provider (ISP/TELCO). This was a big disappointment, and in some cases I felt mislead because they do not mention this to you when you buy it (probably because the people who are the purveyors of mostly RF equipment know nothing about packet networks) Those are big buck connections. These are using UDP meaning that traffic from your radio system does not have guaranteed delivery to/from the endpoints. If any of the iP addreses are busy handling another request, your call will not be heard off of the repeater/base. No re-attempts will be tried to ensure delivery. Read more here-->http://www.skullbox.net/tcpudp.php . This is because the companies who make the NXU-2 and the IP223 know very little about networks/networking and have borrowed this section of their device from consumer VoiP telephony. Schemes like SIP, UDP, etc. are all designed for FULL DUPLEX telephony and telephone system signalling and non mission critical data (quicktime movile for example). This also means in the case of bandwidth in an emergency, there are two "states" running at all times (uplink/downlink) Even though the brands present themselves as "public Safety" through advertising, every nuance behind the scenes is quite consumer. It will be very expensive per month to do any more than (2) because you will need a broadcast iP which most routers will not allow. Therefore the (15) quantar project will most likely be a disappointment and a learning experience in packet networks.

SiteCAST from Critical RF (http://www.criticalrf.com) is a very simple and clever way to do it using ordinary PC's running UNIX or Windows 95-Vista. All you need is an PC of 120MHz or greater with a sound card at each repeater/base. Public or Private connection can be utilized as low as 14.4K dialup, no difference in service level will be apparent! All packets are TCP socketed ensuring delivery just as DARPA wrote the standard around in the 1960's for the military. MultiCast is inherent and UNLIMITED, Static iP is NOT needed, there is a server application that keeps track and looks for dynmaically updated adresses if you should use a less expensive connection.

Right now many State, Local and Federal Agencies are using this suite. Today at 9:30AM CST the State of Mississippi and the Jones county EOC will be running a test of their system utilizing SafetyNET, SiteCAST and Virtual Base Station. Licensed amatuers are always welcome to participate in drills etc. and can PM or email me for a free copy of the software that will turn your PC or PDA into a "Soft Radio", In order to put you locality on the map for disaster preparedness. The more cities and Hams that have it, the more powerful it becomes (think Napster). Anyways these are just a few of the lessons I have learned when dealing with the "me too" products some of grandpa aged companies in land mobile have been churning out to jump on the iP bandwagon. Telex does make good corded microphone systems for stage crews and NFL sidelines though.

Steve

[kj7xe]

In reference to the IP-223 - that could not be more true. For PS reliability the units MUST be on a properly routed, QOS-enabled network, primarily designed specifically for VoIP/RoIP packet traffic.

When I first started diving into the Vega equipment a few years ago or shop connected one base station (Quantar/DIU) which was conntected to an IP-223 (using TRC control), connected to our agency's 'intranet' network and used unicast rather than multicast because the routers were not configured for multicast. The base station was in a different area (about 80 miles away) and the dispatcher was using an IP-2002 IP deskset. Reliability was so poor we took it out of service and ordered up a 2-wire audio circuit, which had far better reliability (and is expensive). The network route was 7 hops and the network itself was not intended to handle such packet traffic anyway but it was a good test and learning experience.

The key is ensuring the network is designed and properly configured for such packet traffic, and that your IT personnel are competent, properly trained, and you work well with them (very important hehe). Where I am working now we are using IP-223s and Daniels base station equipment and network reliability is so good that it's better than some of our telco-owned audio circuits, where the copper runs are old and long...

[randymince]

Yeah, I would agree on the fact that it can be unreliable and unstable going through ip ranges generated from an ISP. In my case everything will be generated locally, it is DOD, so the paths are point to point and fast. I was just wondering if there are any pointers in the programming of the actual Quantar to DIU to IP-223 that anybody might like to share. I am aware of how it "should" connect, and I think I am on the right track, I just wanted to save myself some headaches if I could. I guess if someone could give me an example of their setup that would help. The example could be basic, like which connection they used on the back of the DIU to interface to the IP-223 and the Quantar. Thanks for the replys. Also this is for DOD support, so again getting multicast Ip's isn't a problem, and bandwidth isn't a problem either, this will be on a local network solely for roip.

[cencom17]

hi, i dont know the distance between sites but we did this connection from a gold series console to a diu/quantar using nxu2a over a link using motorola ptp 400s at 5.8 gig with 28db gain dishes at 12 miles


good luck

[randymince]

What I am really looking to find out is the actual wiring/rss configuration. I just wanted to know the connections from the quantar to diu, and if anybody had configured the units also. I was just trying to find some tips from people before I dive head first. Just by making the initial connections, using the 25 pin connection with the proper pin out, I could press the ptt on the diu and it would key up the repeater, what style headset can I use for the DIU, is there a pin out available? So again I am just looking for actual connections/configurations to get me started. I will keep everybody informed and write out what goes on to maybe offer insight to people. Again this will all be on a local network with fiber backbone, so bandwidth isn't a problem. Thanks for the response from everybody also.

[515]

Do you have a TTN4010 V.24 card in the Quantar (it attaches to the wireline card)? You'll need one, or a pair of the Astro modems to connect a DIU to a Quantar. If you have a V.24 card, you should have a pair of RJ-45 jacks on the front of the Quantar, just to the right of the "Ref. In" BNC jack. I'm not sure if the TTN4010 comes with the faceplate with the rectangular hole for the pair of RJ-45 jacks.

The DIU COMM connector has pins on it for a V.24 connection. I can dig up the diagram for the connection if you need it...

[randymince]

We have modems installed, the V.24 card. Any help would be awesome, I would just like a template to go off of for basic connection I guess. Thanks for the help.

[515]

I posted the V.24 Quantar-to-DIU cable a while back in this thread:

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=51913

The V.24 cards aren't modems--they basically just provide a serial data interface on the Quantar. You're limited to about 50 feet of cable between the Quantar and DIU with the V.24 setup. The Astro modems on the other hand, send/receive the same data, but convert it to modem tones that can be passed down a 4-wire leased telephone line, or just a long 4-wire cable run.

There's quite a bit of other good info in that thread that would relate to your project.

Good luck!

[randymince]

Allright, question regarding the mic for the diu. What mic will work? I could receive but not transmit audio, the Quantar will key up when the ptt button is pushed on the DIU, but I was using a mic from the MC2000. Oh yeah we are connecting using the V.24's, so any other info would be awesome as far as pinouts, programming tips, or anything else that you would feel helpful. Thanks

[515]

The only mic I've ever used from the front panel of the DIU was an old RCH3000 handset. Unfortunately, they don't make the RCH3000 deskset anymore, and the handset from the replacement MC3000 deskset must be wired differently, as it didn't work. The RCH3000 handset worked for both TX and RX.

If you have any standard tone remote deskset, you could connect that to the CONSOLE connector on the DIU, and use that for TX & RX. It seems the handset connector on the front of the DIU was really only intended for testing purposes. I'm not even sure if you could connect an external speaker there, as the audio level may not be high enough.

If you can press the PTT button on the DIU and the Quantar keys in digital, it sounds like you've got the V.24 connection wired correctly.

[515]

Forgot to add...

You might check with GAI-Tronics, as they made the RCH3000, and still make many other desksets. I bet there's a good chance many of their current desksets still use the same handset as the RCH3000 did, so maybe you could order it as a replacement part from them.

http://www.gai-tronics.com/radiodispatc ... sksets.htm

[randymince]

So for testing purposes just interface a MC2000 to the CONSOLE conneciton on the back of the DIU? I just want to make a mock up to see if wiring is correct before I duplicate the wiring 14 times for our other 14 repeater/DIU configurations. Thanks for the info guys.

[randymince]

As far as connecting the MC2000 to the console on the DIU, do I connect it on the left side on the console terminal, that says "from console" in the install guide? I am just looking how to connect from the MC2000 to the DIU. Thanks