Maxtrac Type I to Type II

[Karfield]

I'm working on some Maxtrac Type I trunking units and trying to get them to upgrade to a Type II model. I've got the PROM's correct RF and controllers yet whenever I blow the known good archive into the radio I get an E1 error. I've asked around to all the people I know that work on these and have gotten the same look I'm getting. I've also blanked the radios and just for giggles put in a Type II 900 template and did not receive that error.
All I can think of at this point is that I don't have the system key but I have changed the system in the archive but still got the error.

Any suggestions or explinations would be appreciated.

[Jim202]

No system key, no programy.

You need a valid system key to do any trunking mods to any Motorola radio. If by some chance you have managed
to obtain a copy of the Maxlab software (RSS), I am told that you should be able to program the radio. The
normal RSS will not allow you to make any trunking system mods without a system key to match.

Jim

I'm working on some Maxtrac Type I trunking units and trying to get them to upgrade to a Type II model. I've got the PROM's correct RF and controllers yet whenever I blow the known good archive into the radio I get an E1 error. I've asked around to all the people I know that work on these and have gotten the same look I'm getting. I've also blanked the radios and just for giggles put in a Type II 900 template and did not receive that error.
All I can think of at this point is that I don't have the system key but I have changed the system in the archive but still got the error.

Any suggestions or explinations would be appreciated.

[Karfield]

Thought I'd update this a little bit. I'm taking D45MWA5GB6AK's up to D45MWA5GC7AK's course if someone has any other type II 800 Mhz archive that they might feel would work better I'd be apt to give it a shot.

My last attempt at this ghastly upgrade was to change the donor archive's system to one where I have the system key for and still got that very annoying E1 error. I feel that I should also list the hardware that I've got in these things just in case someone knows if I have something missing or incorrect.

RF board - HLN9122A
Controller - HLN9313B
PROM - HLN9383F

RSS version I decided to go back to was 5.05
Again thank you for any help

[RADIOMAN2002]

If the model number of the radio does the same thing as a Spectra, you may want to try and put a 900 codeplug in the radio then change the model number of the radio and see what happens. Thats what I am going to try tonight. BTW Max Lab is a must to do any of this moding.

[RADIOMAN2002]

First off did you change the Firmware chip for Smartnet. Now after about 6 hours of bitbanging, I have determined that you need an archive of the type of radio you want to update to. The information in the Maxtrac section of Batlabs for updating a type I to II isn't totally correct. After blanking and reconfiguring the radio as a C5, I also got the error tone and the radio will not work. As far a a sytem key, I have original TCMS down loads from M. Also Ifound that if you force a 900 type II into the radio I can get it to work, but gives a VCO out of lock tone, even after modifing the control channels and conventional channels. Apparently the trunking personallity looks at the tune up frequencies as some sort of base. I noticed this when going into the service menu and tried tuning the radio. I kept getting the 900mhz tune up frequencies.

[Karfield]

You are going a bit farther than I'm able to but yes I did get the Smartnet Prom and also found out that if I put a 900 Mhz template in it I won't get the E1 error. But with an 800 type II template I will get an E1 every time. I only have the 1 type II template from a known working unit of the same system. This is the first we've dealt with 800 type II pre-existing system so there aren't any others I can use.
I'm wondering what feature of the Type II radio is causing it to go into that Error, with the model number that is requested it's a 10/10 but the current type 1 is a 6/6. There are 2 800 type two model numbers on the model chart and I'm curious if they both show that same problem or if just the C6 does.
We've already told the customer that we can't upgrade them, however I still have my doubts.

[RADIOMAN2002]

Well I was able to convert my LTR 800 radio to a C-5 after blanking it and loading a codeplug I found on some codeplug site. I have seen the codeplug site listed in some other thread here , I just don't remeber which one. Unfortunately I had to create a DBF file since the codeplug didn't come with one.Creating the DBF was realitivly easy. Using a floppy I copied a 900 codeplug to the floppy, it created a DBF file for it, then I took the codeplug I downloaded put it on the floopy deleted the original and changed the serial to match the one in the DBF. Used the maxtracs software and loaded it into the radio, I hope this will work for you.

[RADIOMAN2002]

OK, here is a definitive way to convert any Motorola radio to any model you want, first Maxlab is a must. Read radio with standard Maxtracs and save,(in case you do something and the radio turns into a brick) go to service menu write down alignment numbers, you will need them later to realign the radio. Now go back to Maxlab blank radio (F8) including tuning info, apparently differnet radios with different firmware store info in different location, so you have to blank the whole eeprom. Load a default code plug from the service menu in replace logic board, use a model thats the same the codeplug you have that you want to convert to, and with the same serial number. If you are going the Smartnet route you will need the updated firmware chip. Now you need to have that codeplug close to what you want, but not neccesarily with all the options you want, and it has to have the same serial number. You can put a B5 or C3 in to the radio and convert it.(More later) After loading the codeplug into the radio with regular Maxtracs, go back to Maxlab, Service, E-prom access, in address B62C is the model index, this needs to be changed to the model you want to eventually end up with. Mine was made into a C6 which is 8B, you will get the codeplug error tone, just use the cheksum key and let it adjust the chksum. Now go back to regular Maxtracs and read the radio. It should show up as a C6 with 10 trunked pers,10 sub and 10 conventional. Modify as needed and load back into the radio. I would suggest you now realign the radio with the settings you saved from the origianl codeplug.

[Karfield]

Finally got back to this. I'm starting to wonder if I've got 5 radios with the same problem. I followed your instructions and got the unit to accept the C6 template but I still get an E1 error when all that is complete? Can you help me identify what this E1 Error may be related to? The deffination of E1 error doesn't seem to fit as I don't see the problem with type I or even 900 type II templates?

[Karfield]

Update:

It appears after listening to the tones generated that I'm getting a External RAM error that is followed by the E1 code on the display. Not sure why I'd have 5 identical failures of the RAM is truely defective on these. If you have any ideas I'm deffinately open.

Thanks again for all the help on this so far.

[RADIOMAN2002]

Alright, I need to know what you are doing step by step.Tell me where you get the error tones. You can't shortcut the procedure.

1) Blank radio including extended ram, and tuning should be F-8.
2) Install Smartnet Prom
3) Reinitialize radio as 800mhz trunking radio. Preferably a C-3, C-5,orC-6
whatever you have a codeplug for. Make sure you have the serial numbers the same.
4)After verifying that the radio powes up with no errors, load the codeplug into the radio.
5) Again verify that the radio has no errors, if not then you can do the upgrading of the radio to C-6 or whatever using the
modifying the model index in the radio using Lab.

[Karfield]

Steps 3 and 4 are what I think could be getting me. I currently have no "defaults" for this model as this is the first customer with Maxtracs on a type II trunking system. Course I don't have access to any of the factory defaults anyway.

But anyhoo,
Where I get the tones and E1 error is right after initialization with the only "verified good" C6 codeplug that I've got. I've got 2 other codeplugs but both came out of units with E1 errors themselves.

I also followed your last set of steps with loading back to the B5 and changing the EEPROM settings then blowing the C6 codeplug back on top of it. That came up with the error as soon as I loaded the C6 into it.

Personally this has me frustrated it's more like an obsession than a project at this point but all your help is appreciated.

[Max-trac]

I always convert FROM trunking to conventional, so forgive me.
What is the E1 error? A tone?
Don't forget a lot of default setups want to see the emergency jumper on the 16 pin connector or else you get the short "bonk" error tone (that has caught me a few times).

[Karfield]

I'll look into that emergency line now that you mention it.
The E1 error is what the display is putting up. However there are 2 short 1k tone bursts when you turn the radio on telling me it's an "external RAM" error however this does not show up for any of the other set ups I've tried and it also shows up on all 5 of the Maxtracs I'm converting.

[RADIOMAN2002]

Sorry I havn't been able to get back to you on this. After blanking with Lab ,continue to use Lab and go into the service menu under replace boards, and select logic board. It should take you to the screen where you can make a default codeplug. Select Maxtrac Trunked Hi-Sig, I chose to make mine a C-3 because thats the codeplug I had that had a Type II system in it. Make sure you slelect all the right info, including the right panel number which I think is a 54( You should check on this first, in the Maxtrac section) Try that and let me know if you still get an error. Don't load your other codeplug untill you get the radio to work with the default one.

[Karfield]

I'm a bit slow on this one myself. I played a bit with the unit on friday but I'm guessing I don't quite have the same software you have. There was a bit of a discussion about them this morning so hopefully I'll be able to get out of having to upgrade these.

Although just so I know if I were to get brand new controller boards do you think I'd still get the same error if i used a known good codeplug?

[RADIOMAN2002]

I don't know, I do know that if you are going to update a new blank board, you will need the exact radio codeplug (archive)with the right serial number and Type II info and such. I am beginning to suspect you don't have LAB. If you don't you are not really going to be able to do it.

[depot_01_1994]

I think the problem in moving from Type I PrivPlus to Type II SmartNet is that you cannot completely blank a Type 1 in PP Lab software to sucessfully program a Type 2 codeplug.
Let me try to explain.
Blanking a PP board with PP lab and reloading up with a good PP codeplug results in no errors, all is well.
Blanking a PP board with PP LAB and then applying a Type II image will result in errors, because of leftover Type I code in the flash.
Now what may work well is if you are able to blank a Type I PP board using Maxtrac Smartnet LAB software.
Enjoy

FT.LAUD SERVICE DEPOT 1995...RIP!
#2945

[RADIOMAN2002]

Lab is Lab, I know of no difference in the versions as to what it blanks.(BTW what ver. do you have?) When you blank the board, including the tuning info you have a totally blanked logic board. When you turn it on it just burps once. Now if you are comfortabe with editing the code plug using the EEprom access feature, you can put the serial number of the radio that you want the radio to be with the codeplug you have.(I do that by accessing the radio with the Type II info I want, in EEprom access, read the first page of info address 600 to 630, then switch to the blanked radio and program) Then in normal MaxtracS, merely update the radio, with the archive. Other wise you are going to have to do a 2 step update. First making the radio a C-5 (in Lab after blanking, including tuning info)or whatever your codeplug is then cloning it. I've done a few 900 at this date, even making them conventional and then putting them back to a Type II, so I know it does work. I did just think of something that may be causing you difficulty, the radio has to be a 16pin, but you need to look at the logic board to make sure it has the additional EEprom alongside the UVprom. I ran into a few radios that were 16pin but came without that additional EEprom, I think I mentioned this before.

[depot_01_1994]

I dont own Lab software, but I have worked with it while at the support Depot in Plantation.
There are 3 types of Maxtrac Lab software that I knew of which were
Maxtrac Conventional Lab
Maxtrac Trunked Lab
Maxtrac Smartnet Lab
As I can remember, there was always a problem in converting Type I to Type II 800 MHZ Smartnet, which is one reason why Maxtrac Smartnet Lab was later developed
You are correct, when converting from Type I to Type II to 900MHZ Smartnet there would be no errors !
We only had one computer at the Depot that had Smartnet Lab in the work area, and I never had the need to work with it.
My expertize was with the STX product line and later some RADIUS work.
My main goal at that time was to ONE day work with the MOSTAR Techs, but then sadly 1995 came !

[Karfield]

My assumption at this point is that since I do not have maxtrac trunking lab or the smartnet lab I won't be able to do it from the controller in the radio. All I have is conventional lab and it appears that it does not quite blank the radio all the way. I'm still waiting to hear back from someone who should be able to help me out here but who knows when he'll get back with me. I'll update this when I get my final answer.

[depot_01_1994]

Hello.
I have to admit that I have not searched this forum in relation to the Type I to Type II MaxTrac conversions.
When I read your first post, some memories came back to me from my days at the Depot.
I will try to make contacts this week from some people I worked with at Motorola so we can see what is needed to finally resolve this issue.
After some 13 years it will be interesting to see who is around !
Just to confirm, the controllers you have were originally 16 pin 800 MHZ Type I and you replaced the ROMs for SmartNet?
Can you give me the original NTN numbers on the boards also ?
Thanks

[RADIOMAN2002]

Well thats more info than I have had. I have only had one version Maxtrac v5.00 Lab, which is not a trunked version that I am aware of. It won't read a trunked radio but lets me set up a trunked model configuration after blanking. Maybe I am getting the results I have from a convuloted way of updating the radio. With the conventional Lab I create a trunked radio with no trunking info in it, the software will not let me add any trunked personalities. I loaded a Type I codeplug I got from one of the codeplug sites, then with a TCMS update I had for a 900mhz Type II updated the radio. I don't know if this helps, I suspect that Motorola keeps a tight reign on its lab software, so I don't know if you can do anything further.

[Karfield]

[quote="Karfield"]Thought I'd update this a little bit. I'm taking D45MWA5GB6AK's up to D45MWA5GC7AK's course if someone has any other type II 800 Mhz archive that they might feel would work better I'd be apt to give it a shot.

My last attempt at this ghastly upgrade was to change the donor archive's system to one where I have the system key for and still got that very annoying E1 error. I feel that I should also list the hardware that I've got in these things just in case someone knows if I have something missing or incorrect.

RF board - HLN9122A
Controller - HLN9313B
PROM - HLN9383F

RSS version I decided to go back to was 5.05
Again thank you for any help[/quote]

depot guy,
That's what I got in the radios. Far as who is left, from the guys I knew. Nobody All the mobile techs that knew the older products didn't even go to the call center and did not stay on at CTDI could when they shipped out the mobiles they still had a ways to go till CTDI fully took over which leads me to believe they weren't given too much option to stay or simply chose not to.

[RADIOMAN2002]

Well if you have Max Lab 5.05 you should be able to load a default codeplug in it after blanking. I think if memory serves me only up to a C-3 or C-5 (d45mwa5gc3 or 5 ). After that if you have a codeplug that is near those you could CLONE not PROGRAM. I have found that even with a system key , you cannot create a system Type I or II, you will need a TCMS codeplug update, it doesn't matter what kind, as long as it is Type II. BTW there is some very good info here about system keys, you might want to look at that.

[Karfield]

ARGGGG!!!!! Pulls hair out and stomps on floor.

I figured this one out yesterday and now I'm wanting to shoot myself in the foot it was sooooo simple. Just not sure why only 800Mhz Type II trunking models suffer from this issue. I understand it's a smartnet thing but the 900's don't. Very odd.

I digress. The problem was a floating emergency I/O, as long it stayed low or nearly ground the unit didn't have an issue (I've seen this on many of the operational unit the customer had sent in). However, if (and an easy if this is) the Emergency I/O pin floats above a good ground value the unit will get "confused" and give an E1 error when you turn it on. Thus you should always use the Emergency I/O to Ground loop back with your audio loopback accessory plug when dealing with smartnet radios.

.....and in the words of a famous nearly bald man. DOHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!