Narrow Band

[KitN1MCC]

i have been doing some looking over here and i am confused by what u have read online.
i take car of about 5 small Business systems on VHF and they dont like to spend money. So do i need to tell them that the Spectras/Maxtrac/Maratracs they have now are going to be junk at 2013 and they have 5 year to buy newer radios . but from i read is if you dont modify the Lisence it is ok to use the older wide band radios. and one can help me out with some clarification. also what mobiles do narrowband

[k2hz]

This link is a good summary of the present FCC timeline for conversion.

http://www.tricountycom.com/FCC/fcc_report_narrow.htm

You can use your present wideband radios on currently licensed wideband channels until 2013.

If you buy new radios for VHF, be sure they are capable of the new FCC 7.5kHz offset channels. There are a lot of "narrow band" radios made before the FCC adopted the new channels that are capable of 12.5 kHz bandwidth but the synthesizer does not support the new 7.5 kHz VHF channel spacing. This is not a problem if you only plan to convert an existing channel to narrow band but it is an issue if you expect to add new frequencies to your system.

[KitN1MCC]

so basically i have to tell these guys they are gonna have to come up with some cash to buy new radios as of 2013

[486dx4]

The maxtracs can be converted to narrowband with a conversion kit HLN9575A. From what I read on the board in the past there are no such kits for the maratracs and older analog spectras.

While the kit does work you still need a tech with proper test/service equipment, etc to install the kit on the maxtracs so there is a decent cost to this but it could be less than a brand new radio depending on where you go and what kinds of new equipment you are looking to purchase. But you still have the 2.5 Khz steps issue with the maxtracs like k2hz said which nothing can be done about. If the frequencies you are using on VHF are still going to be the same though then the step issue does not matter.

Its just another option to consider with some of the equipment you have.

[RKG]

Since we are in the relm of speculation (where, by definition, no answer is either right or wrong), let me toss in my two cents worth:

1. Yes, your guys are going to have to buy new equipment. But they don't have to do it right away, and they shouldn't do it right away.

2. Historically, FCC's implementation schedules are about as firm as cooked spaghetti. Not only could the dates change, but the technical specs, as well.

3. The FCC's ultimate goal does not stop with 12.5 KHz bandwidth; they are looking for 6.25 KHz. However, there are some technical problems with this, as some of the manufacturers are begining to realize. For instance, the whole impetus behind the MotoTRBO TDMA digital format is that it makes "6.25 KHz equivalent" channels out of what are in reality 12.5 KHz-wide emission channels; there is some experimental data that says that 6.25 KHz equipment isn't stable enough for typical field deployment.

4. My approach, in those few limited instances in which I have any influence on decisionmaking, has been to encourage departments making major upgrades or changes in their systems, to implement 12.5 KHz channels. This prepares them to meet the soonest of the presently-projected deadlines, while preserving flexibility as things change. Though there are some who are as dubious about 12.5 KHz channels as I am about 6.25 KHz channels, in fact our experience has been that delivered audio quality for analog voice at 12.5 KHz, including signalling tones, is indistinguishable from the DAQ on 25 KHz channels.

[k2hz]

1. Yes, your guys are going to have to buy new equipment. But they don't have to do it right away, and they shouldn't do it right away.

I agree 100% with RKG's comments. I think a wait and see approach is wise unless there are factors other than the FCC deadline driving the change.

Narrow band analog works with only very slight degradation on UHF with 12.5 kHz channel spacing and 12.5 kHz bandwidth. VHF is a different story with the FCC plan for 7.5 kHz channel spacing with 12.5 kHz bandwidth. It is the proverbial 12.5# of "stuff" in a 7.5# bag. It just does not work. With frequency coordinators blindly assigning 7.5 adjacent channels with no geographical separation it is a total mess. Even with theoretically perfect transmitter and receiver bandwidth, there is no way you can receive your portable user while a 250W base on the adjacent 7.5 kHz channel a few miles away in the next county is transmitting.

The only way I see the 7.5 spacing working is with true 6.25 kHz digital technology that does not exist today.

[KitN1MCC]

i wonder if the maxtrac kit will work in the maratrac it sems like it should seeing how the maratrac is close to the maxtrac

But i think the FCC first started this when VHF was verry crowded with Business users. byt there are lots of places that still show active to the FCC but in reality they have dumped all there VHF lo and hi and UHF for Nextels. here in CT VHF is not that crowded at All

[Bat2way]

It'll be another pitch from salesmen saying you "MUST" buy a new radio, just as when the P1225 came out. This is the last thing I would worry about in RadioWorld.

[Satelite]

Hello :
Just a clarification:
Yes the Motorola M100 / M216 / and the Maxtracs can be converted to 12.5 narrow band with the above mentioned conversion kit.
But the M100/M216/Maxtracs in the VHF VERSION MUST HAVE THE RF BD HLD4321C or later to be compatible with the 12.5 conversion kit.
The M100/M216/Maxtracs in the UHF VERSION MUST HAVE A RF BD HLE9310B or later to be compatible with the 12.5 conversion kit.
The conversion kit is also for the Motorola GM300 / M10 / M120 / M130 mobiles .
HLN9575 is for VHF in both 136 to 162 mhz and also for the 146 to 147 mhz 12.5 NB conversion.
HLN9576 is for the UHF in all the bands 403 to 433 mhz and 438 to 470 mhz and 465 to 495 mhz and last the 490 to 520 mhz bands.
Last kit i ordered from M was 5-2007 and cost $80.50
But it does convert the radio very nicely and i did a Maxtrac 32 ch UHF 40 watt .
Will it work with a MARATRAC ? Cant say it would depend on the RF BD and if it by chance it used the same Y51A and Y51B crystals as the Maxtrac used.
If by chance the part numbers were the same for the wide band maxtrac as the maratrac wide band in the same band split then id say its posible with a little experimentation with the resistor values.
But thats just my opinion.
Satelite

[KitN1MCC]

is there a complete list of radio's that can do narrow band


also i there any one on here who can install the kits and get them working in a fairly quik time.

[Tony.RI]

is there a complete list of radio's that can do narrow band?

https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/vhf_summary.cfm
While its an NTIA list and not an FCC list, it should give you an idea.

[Jim202]

The main problem with waiting until the end of 2012 to modify your license, is that there will
probably be a backlog of modifications piling up at the FCC. This would cause a major problem
to the licensee if the modified license didn't come back in time. You would have to stop using
your radios or be in violation of the FCC rules and regs.

Jim

[KitN1MCC]

at the railroad i need to go in and talk with them on starting to replace some units. the hard par is the 100watt radios

i thinks some of the maxtrac radius can take the mod kit

[RADIOMAN2002]

"at the railroad i need to go in and talk with them on starting to replace some units. the hard par is the 100watt radios"

You most likely you won't get anything near a 100 watt license on any of the RR channels any time in the future, when you are forced to re-license, so you won't need them. Another MAJOR problem is that you are not going to get any 12.5 channels, since the coordinator, TCCI, has taken the position, that there will be NO 12.5 licensing allowed by them. I am fighting them now and I am about ready to go over their head directly to the FCC. TCCI wants everybody to go directly to 6.25 digital. 6.25 digital is an unproven technology and I would suspect that by the time the FCC mandates 6.25 spacing, maybe 20 or so years from now, the technology will have gone through another revolution or two. Also the association of railroads has taken an unprecedented step in putting all their hopes on the Kenwood/Icom Nexden Digital technology. Not my most favorite, to have to go to propriatary format, unlike APCO-25. They have said they don't want anything to do with APCO-25.

Now using the narrow-band kit on the Maratrac is probably doable, but the radio will not be FCC certified. 100watt radios require a .00001 tolerance, while the 25-50watt only require a .000025 tolerance. I don't believe the kit meets that, I could be wrong. I am upgrading Spectra's for about $100.00 per radio, by using the reference oscillator and IF filters used in the 900mhz radios, to meet the 2013 deadline so at least we can extend our use of radios that are less than 7 years old.

[RKG]

The main problem with waiting until the end of 2012 to modify your license, is that there will
probably be a backlog of modifications piling up at the FCC. This would cause a major problem
to the licensee if the modified license didn't come back in time. You would have to stop using
your radios or be in violation of the FCC rules and regs.

Jim

You won't have to modify your license, since an authorized bandwidth necessarily includes a narrower channel.

My guess is that, when the time gets near, the FCC will issue a regulation effectively modifying "wideband" licenses to "narrowband" authorization by rule.

Save on a few trees.

[Dkouz]

You won't have to modify your license, since an authorized bandwidth necessarily includes a narrower channel.

My guess is that, when the time gets near, the FCC will issue a regulation effectively modifying "wideband" licenses to "narrowband" authorization by rule.

Save on a few trees.

I am no expert, but everything I've read indicates that if you do not modify your license(s) the FCC will cancel them.

[rescuecomm]

Somehow I was thinking IG licenses had until 2018 to convert? Only public safety entities in the 150-174 and 450-512 bands had to convert by 2013 in the updated regulations.

Bob