NTN-1564A lost KG2

[Walking_Catfish]

Hi all... New here but not new to MOTO... However this one has me stumped!

I recently purchased an NTN- 1564A secure module for one of my AS portables. When I first put it in it reported "EMC R02.10 KG1:DES-XL KG2:DES-OFB" in the Service Mode and all seemed well...

Then I tried to write down all the Service Mode info for my (newly acquired) radio. I had to enter the Service Mode several times in order to do this. Since I had not loaded any keys yet, the radio kept beeping "Keyfail" each time just as the radio entered the Service Mode. On about the third time entering the Service Mode, the radio reported "EMC R02.10 KG1:DES-XL KG2:NONE" and has done so ever since. The module still works fine in DES-XL but DES-OFB is GONE!

Everything I've read tells me that this is a legacy module that has unique hardware on it for the KG1 & KG2 algorithms. If this were a UCM I would conclude that the FLASHed DES-OFB algorithm had somehow been blown away.

Since it is supposedly not a UCM, how could I have lost the KG2:DES-OFB?

Any ideas on how (or if) I can recover the lost DES-OFB capability?

Radio Info: H04KDH9PW7AN Host: R 05.51.00 DSP: N 06.04.11 EMC: R 02.10 FLASH 540001-000000-4

Thanks

[kotaguchi]

Did you try loading a key into the module to see if the DES-XL algorithm works?

[Walking_Catfish]

Yes... The DES-XL works.

Also, it IS encrypting when in the ASTRO mode (encrypted ASTRO monitored on a non-ASTRO radio is unmistakeable) but I suspect it is DES-XL not DES-OFB. I suspect it is DES-XL because another radio receives and decodes the encrypted signal and the other radio does NOT have the DES-OFB algo - only DES-XL and DVP-XL.

I have the "DES-XL Tx" option UN-checked in the "Secure" tab of an ASTRO personality which, as the CPS help file says "When disabled, digital DES-OFB (Data Encryption Standard- Output Feedback) applies for the current Conventional Personality".

It COULD be that DES-OFB is working even though the Service Mode of the radio shows KG-2 (formerly DES-OFB) as NONE, but I suspect that if the radio doesn't find the DES-OFB algo. in the secure module it may automatically revert to DES-XL.

Dunno

[Walking_Catfish]

UPDATE...

After studying several secure module lists I have concluded that the NTN-1564A is a UCM -even though it has a firmware revision that is below the 3.0 revision that some documents state is the start of the UCM modules. Further, at least two encryption module listings show the NTN-1563, 1565, 1566 and 1569 modules as UCM, while only the NTN-1562 and NTN-1564 modules are not listed as UCM modules in those same listings. I therefore suspect that all modules in the NTN-15xx series are UCM modules.

As for my module, It continues to show KG1: DES-XL, KG2: NONE

The module works fine in DES-XL but the DES-OFB is definitely gone and I'll probably never get it back.

If anyone sees any obvious oversight or error in my conclusions, I'd be interested in your thoughts and comments.

[w4jb]

Sir, respectfully, the NTN1564 isn't a UCM. If you pop the cover, you'll note the lack of a flash rom.

A UCM is customizable, in the sense it can be reflashed per the customers' needs. The 1564 doesn't fall into this category.

[Walking_Catfish]

I originnally was of the same opinion, however the following observations led me to the conclusion that I came to in my previous post:

1. The KG1 algorithm (DES-XL) in the module works just fine and there are no errors reported from the radio -so I suspect that the module is OK.

2. The module has lost its KG2 algorithm. Originally it reported "KG2: DES-OFB", then later (and currently) reports "KG2: None". It seems to me that a hardware-based EMC algotithm could not be so easily lost. An algorithm that is FLASHed into a UCM, howver, could be easily clobbered.

3. Please refer to the module listing at http://www.akardam.net/moto/docs/mirror ... odules.pdf -specifically at page 2 under the ASTRO SPECTRA section. In it, all NTN-15xx modules, except the 1562 and 1564 are identified as UCMs.
I find it questionable that only two modules out of 5 in a sequentially-numbered module sequence would be that significantly different from the rest. To me it seems more likely that they are either all EMCs or all UCMs. But hey... anything is possible I suppose.

In the meantime, I am going to perform a little experiment. As I Understand it, UMCs are only compatible with ver 11.00.00 or greater in Astro Spectra radios and ver 7.00.00 or greater in Astro Sabers. Currently this module is in a ver 5.51.00 Astro Saber (because I was of the understanding that it is an EMC). I think I will try it in my ver 11.10.00 Astro Spectra and see what happens. Don' know if I'll see anything different or not, but its worth a try.

Bottom line: I'm still trying to figure out how I lost the KG2 algorithm. Thanks for the input though...and you may still be 100% right!

[Walking_Catfish]

UPDATE

Ran my little test. Here are the results:

1. When I placed this module in my ver 11.10.00 Astro Spectra mobile, the radio powered up reporting ERR 09/10 -indicating "Secure option not communicating with radio". Turning the radio off then on again did not clear this message. Also, my AS mobile works fine with the ver 03.53 DES-OFB, DES-XL UCM module that I installed last week

2. The Service Mode in my AS Mobile reported the version of this secure module correctly but also reported "KG1: None, KG2: None, KG3: None". GASP ! Had I lost the module entirely? It sure appeared so.

I then returned it to the ver 5.51 Astro Saber that it came from, expecting it to be totally dead. Turns out that it is not . In the portable, it still works exactly as it did before this little test: DES-XL works fine, but DES-OFB is still gone. No ERR codes either (as before in the portable).

Still have a lot of unanswered questions but I guess for now I'll leave well enough alone.

Unless anyone has any ideas or suggestions...