I write this in hopes to critique my own faults as well to open discussion, gain ideas, share ideas in the installation of consoles, more specifically the level setting thereof. I am going to assume a few things here in my question, so just play along.
This is the second installment of the Audio Level Setting Thread for Tone remote circuits
Situation:
Installing a new AVTEC Scout console system.
Connecting to CPI TTP 216 Tone Remotes with exception of Quantar (Built in TRC Board)
Utilizing a UHF and VHF Low Band CDM1250 Radio and a UHF Quantar Repeater
QC II paging tones and DTMF will need to be sent over eachof the above radios
Assumptions:
1) All equipment is local control, in building copper. Outposts and Radios are in the same room
2) All RF equipment i.e. antennas, interconnect cables, etc are in place and working
3) All punch down and interconnect cable equipment is in place and functioning
4) CDM radios are programmed with channel information and channel change pin config info only (no audio settings touched yet)
5) Quantar is set as a repeater, is factory brand new and is on the air operating. No current wire line connection
6) All equipment is connected and functioning (absent level setting). TTP Tone Remotes are brand new out of the box, and facotry set for -10 db operation
7) AVTEC console is fully programmed and operating, absent audio level setting, Microphone level setting, Tone level setting. All else is programmed and working
8 ) All equipment is wired and set for four wire operation
9) Technician is able to figure out line loss for remote operations and adjust levels accordingly
Install Day:
1) Log into individual AVTEC scout Outpost units and adjust the following paramters as a starting base
Set The TX audio to the Tone Remote > Radio to -10 db (voice peak, 1,000 hz tone comaprable) as a starting point
Set the RX audio level from the Tone Remotes to -10 db as a starting point
Set the console DESK MIC to 0 db of gain, and -3db of gain added adjustment to start
Set the Paging Tone level to 0 db, the 1,000 hz tone should be at 0db on the line level from the outpost to the tone remote
2) Set up the Motorola Service monitor, lineman and/or Fluke 123 or 289
3) Cause Console to TX a -10 db 1,000 hz tone on the TX line to a Tone Remote/CDM Radio. Use Lineman or Fluke to Measure/Confirm -10 at the punch block to the Tone Remote. Send a Series of QC II page tones at 0 db level and check scope meter to check level of tones, not exceeding 0 db.
4) Park Service Monitor on channel and measure the Deviation of the signal, 2-2.5kc for Narrow and 3-3.5kc for Wide Band Operation of the CDM radio with and without the 1,000 hz and paging tones sent.
5) Generate 1,000 hz tone at full dev signal and verify with the meter that the RX audio from the radio > tone remote > console is not exceeding 0 db.
Questions:
Anything that I am missing, doing wrong, add or change
What CDM settings do you change, if any. Do you keep Pre + De Emphasis set on the channels
Do you bother to check the tone remotes facotry settings if all line/air levels are up to speed and sound good.
How do you guys adjust your console mic levels. I have not been overly impressed with the Desk Mic audio of the AVTEC, although its not terrible. I have noticed that sometimes some dispatchers will kill the audio and distort it while others sound great. This has been my heartach, the two global mic settings on each media workstation (console) have a individual mic gain, and added gain to the audio settings, which are adjustable. Sometimes the console mic picks up to much background noise and such. Some input on this, espicially from AVTEC installers would be awesome.
We use the JPS SNV12 voter in many installation, any tips ro what you do on line level set up from console to this device would be aprrecitaed
How do you all set you paging level tones??? Give me yopur tips on this
Do you set your paging tone levels differently if you are going remote base to a repeater or direct wire to a quantar, i.e. paging tones > CDM1250 > a remote located repeater for pager activation.
- Rob
New Console Installation and Provisioning
Moderator: Queue Moderator
Re: New Console Installation and Provisioning
FMROB wrote:I write this in hopes to critique my own faults as well to open discussion, gain ideas, share ideas in the installation of consoles, more specifically the level setting thereof. I am going to assume a few things here in my question, so just play along.
This is the second installment of the Audio Level Setting Thread for Tone remote circuits
Situation:
Installing a new AVTEC Scout console system.
Connecting to CPI TTP 216 Tone Remotes with exception of Quantar (Built in TRC Board)
Utilizing a UHF and VHF Low Band CDM1250 Radio and a UHF Quantar Repeater
QC II paging tones and DTMF will need to be sent over eachof the above radios
Assumptions:
1) All equipment is local control, in building copper. Outposts and Radios are in the same room
2) All RF equipment i.e. antennas, interconnect cables, etc are in place and working
3) All punch down and interconnect cable equipment is in place and functioning
4) CDM radios are programmed with channel information and channel change pin config info only (no audio settings touched yet)
5) Quantar is set as a repeater, is factory brand new and is on the air operating. No current wire line connection
6) All equipment is connected and functioning (absent level setting). TTP Tone Remotes are brand new out of the box, and facotry set for -10 db operation
7) AVTEC console is fully programmed and operating, absent audio level setting, Microphone level setting, Tone level setting. All else is programmed and working
8 ) All equipment is wired and set for four wire operation
9) Technician is able to figure out line loss for remote operations and adjust levels accordingly
Install Day:
1) Log into individual AVTEC scout Outpost units and adjust the following paramters as a starting base
Set The TX audio to the Tone Remote > Radio to -10 db (voice peak, 1,000 hz tone comaprable) as a starting point
Set the RX audio level from the Tone Remotes to -10 db as a starting point
Set the console DESK MIC to 0 db of gain, and -3db of gain added adjustment to start
Set the Paging Tone level to 0 db, the 1,000 hz tone should be at 0db on the line level from the outpost to the tone remote
2) Set up the Motorola Service monitor, lineman and/or Fluke 123 or 289
3) Cause Console to TX a -10 db 1,000 hz tone on the TX line to a Tone Remote/CDM Radio. Use Lineman or Fluke to Measure/Confirm -10 at the punch block to the Tone Remote. Send a Series of QC II page tones at 0 db level and check scope meter to check level of tones, not exceeding 0 db.
4) Park Service Monitor on channel and measure the Deviation of the signal, 2-2.5kc for Narrow and 3-3.5kc for Wide Band Operation of the CDM radio with and without the 1,000 hz and paging tones sent.
5) Generate 1,000 hz tone at full dev signal and verify with the meter that the RX audio from the radio > tone remote > console is not exceeding 0 db.
Questions:
Anything that I am missing, doing wrong, add or change
What CDM settings do you change, if any. Do you keep Pre + De Emphasis set on the channels
Do you bother to check the tone remotes facotry settings if all line/air levels are up to speed and sound good.
How do you guys adjust your console mic levels. I have not been overly impressed with the Desk Mic audio of the AVTEC, although its not terrible. I have noticed that sometimes some dispatchers will kill the audio and distort it while others sound great. This has been my heartach, the two global mic settings on each media workstation (console) have a individual mic gain, and added gain to the audio settings, which are adjustable. Sometimes the console mic picks up to much background noise and such. Some input on this, espicially from AVTEC installers would be awesome.
We use the JPS SNV12 voter in many installation, any tips ro what you do on line level set up from console to this device would be aprrecitaed
How do you all set you paging level tones??? Give me yopur tips on this
Do you set your paging tone levels differently if you are going remote base to a repeater or direct wire to a quantar, i.e. paging tones > CDM1250 > a remote located repeater for pager activation.
- Rob
My first comment here is this all has been covered by many threads in the past. If you do a search on tone remote control, you will probably spend the next week reading it all.
It would be help to obtain the use of a service monitor to be able to look at the results of your efforts before you go too far playing with levels from the console. The use of a good TIMS unit will allow you to look at the actual levels your playing with. Make sure that your using the instrument in the bridged mode for all your measurements.
As for the paging audio levels, again this has been discussed in great detail many times. The only thing further that I will say is do not run the pager tones into compression on the transmitters. These tones want to be at about the 3.2 KHz deviation level on a standard channel. If you have already gone narrow band, then you will have to lower the level even further. However, I will point out that most pagers will not work that well on narrow band operation unless they have been modified. There will be those on here that will dispute what I just said about them working on the lower tone levels. The big question to them is will they work all the time in low RF level areas?
Jim
Re: New Console Installation and Provisioning
Jim,
Thank you for the reply. I have fully done searches on these topics and have found not one complete source of good info on the matter. The most applicable thread was the tone remote level thread that has been kicking around for some time. I usually print out any good threads and I keep it in my reference binder with tabs on the different subjects. It is great to fall back on all the printed info.
To be clear, I have two Motorola service monitors, two HP TIMS sets, a Fluke 289 and 123, 6 Helpers Instruments LineMan testers and a host of other service equipment. I have, what I believe is a good working relationship with my test equipment (I hope), but what I was more looking for was some advanced level console set up tips and tricks. I want to see If I am doing something wrong, or should be doing something different. It is a very pointed topic, that unfortunately is not covered much on the board. I will be doing allot more work with paging and want to learn more about paging level setting, which after searching the board is scarce. My interest is specifically in level setting of the tone remotes, console devices, and radios.
Any further tips/tricks would be awesome. Thanks, Rob
Thank you for the reply. I have fully done searches on these topics and have found not one complete source of good info on the matter. The most applicable thread was the tone remote level thread that has been kicking around for some time. I usually print out any good threads and I keep it in my reference binder with tabs on the different subjects. It is great to fall back on all the printed info.
To be clear, I have two Motorola service monitors, two HP TIMS sets, a Fluke 289 and 123, 6 Helpers Instruments LineMan testers and a host of other service equipment. I have, what I believe is a good working relationship with my test equipment (I hope), but what I was more looking for was some advanced level console set up tips and tricks. I want to see If I am doing something wrong, or should be doing something different. It is a very pointed topic, that unfortunately is not covered much on the board. I will be doing allot more work with paging and want to learn more about paging level setting, which after searching the board is scarce. My interest is specifically in level setting of the tone remotes, console devices, and radios.
Any further tips/tricks would be awesome. Thanks, Rob
Re: New Console Installation and Provisioning
Mornin Rob - The short answer is it sounds like you have a good handle on what to do.
I haven't worked with any Avtec equipment yet. So, I can't give you specifics on that.
But, your overall attack is correct. Start with -10db in and out, including the paging tones, and see where things land on each radio. You want the tones and average voice levels to go out at 2/3 system deviation (approx 3kz wideband, approx 1.5khz narrowband).
Quantars are pretty darn precision built. But, you're also dealing with CDM's and tone remote adapters. You will run into slight individual device adjustments that you need to monitor over the air to finalize on every channel. A service monitor is best, but a monitor receiver (CDM mobile) with good antenna, and an oscilloscope is equally useful.
Yes - turn preemphasis and deemphasis on in the radios. Turn it off / use flat or line audio in the adapters and console.
Mic gain is always a tough one. Desk mics and goosenecks never sound as good as headsets, and even headsets vary from model to model, and person to person. It is difficult to find the happy medium between Mary Mumble and Bobby Boomer without some experimentation. The VU meter on the console is your friend. There are some after market compressor boards that help a lot for severe cases.
I haven't worked with any Avtec equipment yet. So, I can't give you specifics on that.
But, your overall attack is correct. Start with -10db in and out, including the paging tones, and see where things land on each radio. You want the tones and average voice levels to go out at 2/3 system deviation (approx 3kz wideband, approx 1.5khz narrowband).
Quantars are pretty darn precision built. But, you're also dealing with CDM's and tone remote adapters. You will run into slight individual device adjustments that you need to monitor over the air to finalize on every channel. A service monitor is best, but a monitor receiver (CDM mobile) with good antenna, and an oscilloscope is equally useful.
Yes - turn preemphasis and deemphasis on in the radios. Turn it off / use flat or line audio in the adapters and console.
Mic gain is always a tough one. Desk mics and goosenecks never sound as good as headsets, and even headsets vary from model to model, and person to person. It is difficult to find the happy medium between Mary Mumble and Bobby Boomer without some experimentation. The VU meter on the console is your friend. There are some after market compressor boards that help a lot for severe cases.
Re: New Console Installation and Provisioning
Sorry if I came on in the negative, but it seems like this is constantly asked here.
One trick I use is to have a portable on the frequency I am trying to work with so you can hear the results going out from the console.
It really takes two people to do a "SYSTEM ALIGNMENT" in the minimum amount of time. I find that dispatchers have this shyness about bellowing into a mic trying to keep a strong, loud, steady "five" or "ahhhhhhhh" to let your test equipment be able to measure the audio levels on the phone line, microwave and deviation meter settle down to a good reading. So your better off doing it your self.
Testing the paging is some what more simple. The deviation meter is your best tool. Set up at the transmitter site and send a page. Be aware that not all transmitters can be set up to provide the correct low frequency tone deviation that some fire departments like to use. The tone levels fall off fairly rapidly and you end up with almost nothing the lower you go in the tone frequency. It is also a function of how the console encoder is set up.
As for the console mic gain, most radio shops set them up wrong. I have gone into many dispatch centers around the country and you can hear someone talking two rooms away. I like to set the gain so that you need to be no more than 2 feet away from the mic to be heard. If the dispatchers are complaining about not being heard, tell them not to be so lazy and get closer to the mic.
If your wondering about my comment of traveling around the country, I work for a company that makes radio interoperability gateways. This causes me to travel around installing the gateways and interfacing to the radio channels in the dispatch centers. It sure stirs up the feathers of the local radio shops when you start finding out just how poor of a job they have done maintaining the tone remote control adjustments on the different radio channels. Then they get upset when you ask them when the last time was that they checked the audio levels. Found one location that had the LLGT levels that went anywhere from a -22 db to a -39.5 db. being as most Motorola radios stop working when the LLGT gets to a -40 db, it is hard to understand just how that radio circuit stayed working all the time. Then the same radio shop says they won't do anything about it unless I pay them to come out. That is not what I would expect from a radio shop that cares about their work and the public safety agency they are taking care of. I asked when the next time they would be out to the site doing any service work and I would come out and work on it together with them. No dice, the dollars get in the way of fixing the problem. That position doesn't set too well with the public safety agency either. Hope they have enough customers to keep surviving on, because I think they just lost one.
Bill G had some good advice for you. Between what you already know and probably some feedback from others, you should do just fine.
Jim
One trick I use is to have a portable on the frequency I am trying to work with so you can hear the results going out from the console.
It really takes two people to do a "SYSTEM ALIGNMENT" in the minimum amount of time. I find that dispatchers have this shyness about bellowing into a mic trying to keep a strong, loud, steady "five" or "ahhhhhhhh" to let your test equipment be able to measure the audio levels on the phone line, microwave and deviation meter settle down to a good reading. So your better off doing it your self.
Testing the paging is some what more simple. The deviation meter is your best tool. Set up at the transmitter site and send a page. Be aware that not all transmitters can be set up to provide the correct low frequency tone deviation that some fire departments like to use. The tone levels fall off fairly rapidly and you end up with almost nothing the lower you go in the tone frequency. It is also a function of how the console encoder is set up.
As for the console mic gain, most radio shops set them up wrong. I have gone into many dispatch centers around the country and you can hear someone talking two rooms away. I like to set the gain so that you need to be no more than 2 feet away from the mic to be heard. If the dispatchers are complaining about not being heard, tell them not to be so lazy and get closer to the mic.
If your wondering about my comment of traveling around the country, I work for a company that makes radio interoperability gateways. This causes me to travel around installing the gateways and interfacing to the radio channels in the dispatch centers. It sure stirs up the feathers of the local radio shops when you start finding out just how poor of a job they have done maintaining the tone remote control adjustments on the different radio channels. Then they get upset when you ask them when the last time was that they checked the audio levels. Found one location that had the LLGT levels that went anywhere from a -22 db to a -39.5 db. being as most Motorola radios stop working when the LLGT gets to a -40 db, it is hard to understand just how that radio circuit stayed working all the time. Then the same radio shop says they won't do anything about it unless I pay them to come out. That is not what I would expect from a radio shop that cares about their work and the public safety agency they are taking care of. I asked when the next time they would be out to the site doing any service work and I would come out and work on it together with them. No dice, the dollars get in the way of fixing the problem. That position doesn't set too well with the public safety agency either. Hope they have enough customers to keep surviving on, because I think they just lost one.
Bill G had some good advice for you. Between what you already know and probably some feedback from others, you should do just fine.
Jim
Re: New Console Installation and Provisioning
Jim & Bill,
Thank you both for the replies. It's nice to know that we can always count on guys like you for the right answers. I know that this topic does get beat around a bit from thread to thread, but I am getting more heavily involved int he console realm, and wanted to hone my skills, and to see if I was doing anything really worng. There really isn't a complete "manual" on how to properly set levels from A to Z.
Thanks all for the input, hopefully this helps some others as well. - Rob
Thank you both for the replies. It's nice to know that we can always count on guys like you for the right answers. I know that this topic does get beat around a bit from thread to thread, but I am getting more heavily involved int he console realm, and wanted to hone my skills, and to see if I was doing anything really worng. There really isn't a complete "manual" on how to properly set levels from A to Z.
Thanks all for the input, hopefully this helps some others as well. - Rob