Phones as scanners

[HLA]

Anyone heard anything about the aps for phones that let you listen to pretty much any PD from anywhere? Does that make the phone concidered a scanner?

[N4KVE]

A guy at work showed me that last week. You can't listen to a specific ch. Rather you hear whatever is on the system. Like having a scanner that listens to every freq on a trunking system, so it got boring real fast. It's somehow linked to Radio Ref. GARY N4KVE

[N4DES]

Not all of them are streamed, but most of the larger ones are. I do know that Andriod market has it listed and so does Blackberry.

[cordsally]

Nice topic,fine replies and great information........................

[HLA]

not exactly what i'm asking, is the phone concidered a scanner if it's not actually recieving the direct broadcast from the tower? If i'm not mistaken it's being streamed over the internet and thru a cell tower. I'm asking because the local pd brought me one to de program, scanners are illegal here in Indiana and they always bring me radios to read to let them know what's in them then de program if the judge orders it but it's not like I can open up some kind of cps and remove a vhf frequency from it?

[Bill_G]

not exactly what i'm asking, is the phone concidered a scanner if it's not actually recieving the direct broadcast from the tower? If i'm not mistaken it's being streamed over the internet and thru a cell tower. I'm asking because the local pd brought me one to de program, scanners are illegal here in Indiana and they always bring me radios to read to let them know what's in them then de program if the judge orders it but it's not like I can open up some kind of cps and remove a vhf frequency from it?

I kinda wondered if that was where you were going with this. Obviously we have to defer to legal experts. If Indiana says they are, then they are. But, what they can do about it is another matter.

Question - Are scanners entirely illegal in Indiana, or just driving around with one in your car?

[MTS2000des]

depends on what your state law classifies as a scanner. Read the text.
Cellular and PCS phones operate on licensed spectrum, and are not scanning anything. Using an application that streams audio from the public internet shouldn't cross the line, unless the stream is originating inside the state of Indiana. Then you might have a problem.

But you know what they say about internet lawyers, they are worth the retainer you never paid. I'd consult a local criminal attorney or DA who is a ham (if you can find one) and get THEIR opinion. In the end, the one the judge hands down is the only one that really matters.

[N4KVE]

Usually the laws mention a "frequency modulated" signal, but it's just an app you download & on GSM, CDMA, IDEN, etc. GARY N4KVE

[HLA]

http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/scanner5.html

Well it says totally illegal while mobile or on a pedestrian so you can use a scanner while in your private home. A judge ordered it de programed but like I said, I can't just plug it into a computer and open a cps and remove the vhf frequency. I guess it might be concidered a simulcast but I faxed the court and explained the issue so we'll see what they say. Just wondering if anyone ran into this before? I even had them bring me a car to de program the 2 way in it to get rid of the county pd, state pd, and local pd but when I read the radio it was a uhf radio and all the local freqs are vhf. Come to find out he had a scanner at home hooked up to a cross band repeater and he was simulcasting it so it technically wasn't on their freqs. When I got back with them and explained that to them, they ordered the radio removed and impounded and they impounded the repeater. So I guess it just depends on how somebody percieves what's written

[MTS2000des]

what a bogus and arcane law. I'm glad I don't live in such a totalitarian state.
Never the less, deleting the app would suffice as "deprogramming" as the device would no longer be capable of "receiving" said streams.

[HLA]

In my opinion, I think laws need to be constant from state to state. I think it's rediculous that my permit to carry a gun isn't recognized in other states and I had to go thru more to get that than my drivers license that all states recognize. Or even go across the line to Ohio and you only have to be 18 to get into bars. I also think we need less laws, not more that complicate things. I got stopped in Illinois one day for not having a license plate on the front of my car, well Indiana does not give you two plates or require that so how can they punish me for that?

[RadioSouth]

One of those situations where the technology is newer than the law on the subject. Somewhere there is a radio involved and the mentioned device links to that radio so interpretation will vary widely if a radio was or was not being monitored until a test case comes about. Not only is the wording of the law important but also the intent from when it was written is a factor.

[escomm]

Any good lawyer ought to be able to easily get his/her client out of hot water for most of those laws. Example, Indiana. They say a radio is a police radio if it's capable of receiving police transmissions. Any FM radio in the appropriate bandsplit would thus be illegal, it's capable of receiving transmissions, even if not programmed to do so. The wording is far too vague IMHO.

Of course, I wouldn't want to be the one to have his feet dragged over the coals in order to find out. But still, that's what happens when people who don't use the technology write bills that become laws that state how the technology can or can't be used.

Code: Select all

 (c) As used in this section, "police radio" means a radio that is capable
        of sending or receiving signals transmitted on frequencies assigned
        by the Federal Communications Commission for police emergency
        purposes and that:
        (1) can be installed, maintained, or operated in a vehicle; or
        (2) can be operated while it is being carried by an individual.

[AEC]

http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/scanner5.html

Well it says totally illegal while mobile or on a pedestrian so you can use a scanner while in your private home. A judge ordered it de programed but like I said, I can't just plug it into a computer and open a cps and remove the vhf frequency. I guess it might be concidered a simulcast but I faxed the court and explained the issue so we'll see what they say. Just wondering if anyone ran into this before? I even had them bring me a car to de program the 2 way in it to get rid of the county pd, state pd, and local pd but when I read the radio it was a uhf radio and all the local freqs are vhf. Come to find out he had a scanner at home hooked up to a cross band repeater and he was simulcasting it so it technically wasn't on their freqs. When I got back with them and explained that to them, they ordered the radio removed and impounded and they impounded the repeater. So I guess it just depends on how somebody percieves what's written

First off, the judge overstepped his authority, as it is a federal matter only, when it comes to licensed services, even amateur radio, and especially commercial. This has been noted in several court proceedings in the past. Too bad so many judges assume they are the law, and that 'their' say so means everything, everywhere. The ONLY area where local jurisdiction can have an effect, is when it concerns CB interference and complaints, then the judge can do something about it, this is also covered in FCC rulings.
Good thing I don't live in Indiana, sounds like that state is full of nazis, and I'd be one of those filing suit for theft of personal property(which is what impounding really is).
And one against the judge for overstepping his authority and acting as a federal judge for his meddling in something that is clearly out of his jurisdiction.
But that is my two cents worth of SHL.com.

[AEC]

One quick note on the phone app....It is a cellphone, and in and of itself, can not receive ANY radio calls, so this whack job of a judge would look pretty stupid for attempting to fine someone for using a scanner. One simple call would clear that up in a heartbeat, and tell the judge that I would like for any person here to find a single radio channel in my phone that will allow you to receive police calls...Please do so now....Streaming anyhting over the web is just that, and I doubt any judge can say a cellphone is a scanner, rgardless if it 'receives' streaing audio that just happens to be police calls, as the device itself is incapable of doing so, by design.
The judge needs to go back to school and learn to read, sounds like he's a class-A moron.

[HLA]

I got the word at about noon, they were sending somebody by to pick it up and it was to be sent out to be destroyed. Here in Indiana you can not have it if you can hear law enforcement disbatching on it. or at least not in public. And from what I also understand this was in a high speed chase so they were using it to avoid law enforcement and that makes it a felony.

[AEC]

Sucks to be that person.
But the phone is still not designed to 'be' a scanner and can not do so by design, and if pushed in court, it wouldn't pass either.
Technical merits alone would blow it out of the water.
Destroying the phone does not eliminate the issue, the internet will still be there.

[AEC]

Odd how taxpayer money pays for the radio equipment and we are forbidden to listen to the very things we pay for, I call that fraud.
No matter, if I lived in Indiana, I would listen regardless, tax money belongs to the people, and government is owned by the people as well, many forget this tiny issue.
Government is not a power unto itself, it was brought into existence by the will of the people.
I paid my share for it, I have every right to listen, and know our investment is not being abused, or used illegally.

[escomm]

I got the word at about noon, they were sending somebody by to pick it up and it was to be sent out to be destroyed. Here in Indiana you can not have it if you can hear law enforcement disbatching on it. or at least not in public. And from what I also understand this was in a high speed chase so they were using it to avoid law enforcement and that makes it a felony.

This doesn't pass the smell test. The gub'ment can seize property with a warrant. I'm not aware of anything that permits them to dispose of the property before the matter is adjudicated. How else is the evidence introduced...? Either you're confused, or the person that told you the story is confused. I hope the guy has a good lawyer, he'd have a field day if what you say is true.

[escomm]

Also you say you were brought a cell phone to deprogram? Did the police bring you a warrant or court order authorizing it? Or did you commit unauthorized access of a computer your own self?

[HLA]

The incident happened over a year ago and just got done in court and he's in prison now, from what I hear they were using the phone to stay away from police and they had drugs on them and took the cops on a little chase. Yes it was brought to us from the courts, dropped off by the sheriff and court ordered.

[AL7OC]

I would venture to guess that the intent of the Indiana law (right or wrong) is to prevent people from keeping tabs on the cops while out and about, especially for the purpose of evading the cops while you're jacking banks. It's probably similar to the statutes regarding the possession of burglary tools. A pry bar and sledge hammer are fine in your shed or garage, but not in your hands at 2AM in your neighbor's yard...

Probably not a good idea to have a device blaring out police radio traffic in your vehicle in Indiana. Radio or not, if the gadget is used to monitor police radio traffic, I would expect some grief.

Some states like New York prohibit the use of a radio capable of receiving police radio traffic in a vehicle with the exception of radios that are part of a licensed amateur station. I don't have a copy of the law and It's been 20 years since I lived in NYS. If your VHF or UHF radio is synthesized or has an old fashioned VFO, but part of your ham station, then it's technically OK. I still wouldn't be caught with police channels programmed in, as most cops don't know a ham radio from a ham sandwich, and again, you'd be inviting grief.

If you really want to test the waters regarding scanner laws, I'd talk to an attorney first before poking the local constabulary in the eye.

[HLA]

http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/scanner5.html

Here's a link to all 50 states laws and it looks like 50 state illegal to use in a crime or evade police. And who wrote that page wrote it out in plain english and is pretty accurage. But I still say laws need to be constant from state to state.

[Batwings21]

Where in Indiana do you live? Because I've worked as a two way radio installer and then as a technician in Northwest Indiana for 11 years and never once have I heard of a judge ordering a radio or scanner to be "deprogrammed" or destroyed. If anything they are confiscated and sold years later as unclaimed property.

And here is the full law

Original source: Indiana Code (2012)
Offenses Against Public Administration
Interference With Governmental Operations
§ 35-44-3-12 -- Possession of Police Radios

IC 35-44-3
Chapter 3. Interference with, Fleeing, or Resisting Governmental Operations

[...]

IC 35-44-3-12
Unlawful use of a police radio; exemptions; "police radio" defined

Sec. 12. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) possesses a police radio;
(2) transmits over a frequency assigned for police emergency purposes;
or
(3) possesses or uses a police radio:
(A) while committing a crime;
(B) to further the commission of a crime; or
(C) to avoid detection by a law enforcement agency;
commits unlawful use of a police radio, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) Subsection (a)(1) and (a)(2) do not apply to:
(1) a governmental entity;
(2) a regularly employed law enforcement officer;
(3) a common carrier of persons for hire whose vehicles are used in
emergency service;
(4) a public service or utility company whose vehicles are used in
emergency service;
(5) a person who has written permission from the chief executive
officer of a law enforcement agency to possess a police radio;
(6) a person who holds an amateur radio license issued by the Federal
Communications Commission if the person is not transmitting over
a frequency assigned for police emergency purposes;
(7) a person who uses a police radio only in the person's dwelling or
place of business;
(8) a person:
(A) who is regularly engaged in newsgathering activities;
(B) who is employed by a newspaper qualified to receive legal
advertisements under IC 5-3-1, a wire service, or a licensed
commercial or public radio or television station; and
(C) whose name is furnished by his employer to the chief
executive officer of a law enforcement agency in the county
in which the employer's principal office is located;
(9) a person engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling
police radios; or
(10) a person who possesses or uses a police radio during the normal
course of the person's lawful business.
(c) As used in this section, "police radio" means a radio that is capable
of sending or receiving signals transmitted on frequencies assigned
by the Federal Communications Commission for police emergency
purposes and that:
(1) can be installed, maintained, or operated in a vehicle; or
(2) can be operated while it is being carried by an individual.
The term does not include a radio designed for use only in a dwelling.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.342, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.162-1994, SEC.1.


So basically anyone who has a legit reason to have a radio or scanner in there car or on their person can, and yes people who just want to listen cannot have them in their car or on their person. Oh yeah and if your a Ham or work for a radio shop then your exempt as well so long as you don't act like a whacker.

As far as the phone, its not a scanner. If they could do something about it the police departments would have gotten radio reference and their streams taken down before now. (As they should in my opinion) Many PD's are going encrypted and Motorola is pushing encryption based on these apps for smartphones. My personal opinion is that if you can setup your own scanner and stream that to your own phone go for it, but making it this easy for gang bangers and drug addicts to monitor police traffic is nothing but a way to line the site owners pockets.

[SlimBob]

So it's not a police radio unless it's used for police emergency communications? I guess that means that routine traffic isn't police communications....

Then again, the FCC is pretty clear on emergencies.

That law needs to go. It's flawed.

[Bill_G]

Nothing beats Customs recalling a shipment for further inspection AFTER you have installed it.

[jmr061]

As stated in the past ask an attorney for legal advice. Topic locked.