question for the MODAT crowd
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I know that there are MT 500s and also think there are some syntor radios which can do modat along with the current astro series radios. Does anyone know why the lapd and such did not switch over to a MDC system?
Also, does anyone know if there is a specialized decoder required 2 decode modat vs an mdc1200 decoder.
Also, is there a flash code that enables astro saber radios to decode modat?
I'm sure that many of us astro saber radio owners would LOVE 2 get that flash upgrade!
Also, does anyone know if there is a specialized decoder required 2 decode modat vs an mdc1200 decoder.
Also, is there a flash code that enables astro saber radios to decode modat?
I'm sure that many of us astro saber radio owners would LOVE 2 get that flash upgrade!
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Elroy Jetson
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
First, Modat doesn't work on an IMBE radio, so if your radio is IMBE/CAI compliant, you can't have modat in it.
Second, it's a silly noise that will bug you the third time you hear it coming out of your radio. After hearing it ten times, you'll reprogram your radio to turn that damn noise off, and the people you are talking to via the radio will appreciate the silence as well.
Trust me. Been there, done that. You don't want modat unless you NEED it. Even then, you'll wish you didn't have it. It's irritating as hell.
Modat was Motorola's first two way signalling format. Of COURSE you need a modat decoder somewhere in the system otherwise nobody knows what that modat burst signifies, which may be a unit ID number or it may be a status or message transmission, with each different code assigned to a specific meaning.
Radios that I KNOW had modat signalling:
Portable radios:
HT220 (SP version)
MT500 (SP version)
MX series (SP version)
Astro portables (VSELP only)
Mobile radios:
Motrac
Motran
Mocom 70
Mitrek
Micor
(These last 5 could have modat with the aid of external option cards...yes, even the Motrac.) It's surprising how many Systems 90 accessories will work with a Motrac!
Just for fun once, I wired up what appeared to be a syntor X control head (with a few option boxes) to a Motrac. (I started with a Systems 90 Mitrek cable) The clamshell head was actually a Micor clamshell in Syntor plastic for color reasons. Old radio operated by (relatively) modern controls.
There may be others, but that's all I know that had modat available for certain. Presumably VSELP Astro Spectras have the capability as well, but I'm not sure.
Elroy
Second, it's a silly noise that will bug you the third time you hear it coming out of your radio. After hearing it ten times, you'll reprogram your radio to turn that damn noise off, and the people you are talking to via the radio will appreciate the silence as well.
Trust me. Been there, done that. You don't want modat unless you NEED it. Even then, you'll wish you didn't have it. It's irritating as hell.
Modat was Motorola's first two way signalling format. Of COURSE you need a modat decoder somewhere in the system otherwise nobody knows what that modat burst signifies, which may be a unit ID number or it may be a status or message transmission, with each different code assigned to a specific meaning.
Radios that I KNOW had modat signalling:
Portable radios:
HT220 (SP version)
MT500 (SP version)
MX series (SP version)
Astro portables (VSELP only)
Mobile radios:
Motrac
Motran
Mocom 70
Mitrek
Micor
(These last 5 could have modat with the aid of external option cards...yes, even the Motrac.) It's surprising how many Systems 90 accessories will work with a Motrac!
Just for fun once, I wired up what appeared to be a syntor X control head (with a few option boxes) to a Motrac. (I started with a Systems 90 Mitrek cable) The clamshell head was actually a Micor clamshell in Syntor plastic for color reasons. Old radio operated by (relatively) modern controls.
There may be others, but that's all I know that had modat available for certain. Presumably VSELP Astro Spectras have the capability as well, but I'm not sure.
Elroy
To my knowledge, there isn't a decoder for the Astro Series. There have been some floating around for the Syntor, but thats about it.
I WANT to say that I saw a 3rd party box that decodes 600/1200 MODAT and GE Star, but I don't have the page marked anymore. I believe that ran off a computer program. I'll look harder and see what I can dig up, but I remember seeing it on a web page.
There is a repeater (ham) that uses MODAT for basic repeater control, I will see if I can get all the info on that.
I WANT to say that I saw a 3rd party box that decodes 600/1200 MODAT and GE Star, but I don't have the page marked anymore. I believe that ran off a computer program. I'll look harder and see what I can dig up, but I remember seeing it on a web page.
There is a repeater (ham) that uses MODAT for basic repeater control, I will see if I can get all the info on that.
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/\/\y 2 cents
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- What radios do you own?: iPhone, Blackberry, HT220
The only reason why astro radios have modat, is to move major SP customers who had alot of units over to digital. what they do is discontinue the other radios, then come out with a digital version (that costs $3,000) and then make it backwards compatible, start replacing them with radios that will still be useful on the system that the taxpayers paid millions for...But really in effect what Motorola is trying to do is lock these customers into contracts sneakily...You see Motorola relies on selling products by affiliation, and when I fire commander has the authoity to purchase 5 more radios because they are either broken or what, he really dosent care if it works, he just wants it to talk, so he puts the purchase on a quarterly expenditure report,maybe even a procurement credit card with like a $20,000 limit, and everything is fine and dandy. so anyways the city basically gets locked into further purchases of motorola radios...1: because they have a crapload of money invested in it and are familiar with the vendor (old contract) and 2: because in the past Motorola is all these public safety people ever had in the field, less complaints from the guys and that makes the mid level guy 's job easier and therefore he makes a reccomenddation to the guys who sign the check. you see its all quite brilliant, its just when you push a product that isn't quite ready for the big time, and it flops on numerous occasions BIG TIME, its hard to stay on top.especialy since you've already put all your eggs in one nest...look at them with iridium...lost on that one (as much as I thought it was great) and look at digital cell phones (even though they basically invented the cell phone system, they were slow to really put thier digital handets on the market because they were too busy sitting on their thumbs) My pops used to tell me in baseball...if you hit what you think is a good ball, dont stop and look at it, run your ass to first base...it seems they have an easy time of hitting a nice shot, but not really staying on top of things. Anyways im going to bed....MODAT is like Latin....ITS A DEAD LANGUAGE but for radios. if you absolutley need it, then thats the only thing it is good for....but the people who actually need it are few and faw between...besides it never really worked that well anyways. i dont see all the appeal.
My personal opinion is that there are some things digital technology shouldn't be used for. Public Safety is one of them. Not because the scanner users won't be able to listen anymore, but IMO, digital SUCKS. I hated that they went to digital cell phones. PCS is horrible in my opinion. I would rather be able to hear the damn person that I'm talking to then have 30 features. Oh well, to each his own. I personally think that any police dept. or fire dept. who buys digital is just asking for trouble. So far, history says I'm right.
Jack
Jack
I have Sprint PCS and it sucks. It has all kind of neat features, but my old "M" flip phone worked better.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with MODAT, but now since the digital subject was brought up....
It has NO place in public safety. Let the businesses use it and refine it first.
Here, in Pennsylvania, Westmoreland and Allegheny counties are trying to switch over to the 800 digital system. Our neighboring Fayette Co. has it and it sucks- regardless of what the Fayette officals say. Someoen is going to poke their head out and claim that they worked on the system and try to defend it, but it sucks. Period. If you lose JUST ONE repeater, you are screwed. No simplex on these systems!! Our terrain is nothing but hills and valleys. Cell phones don't work and neither will 800 in this area. Why have public safety on such an unreliable system? There are lives that can be lost here, people. It's nice that you can all have seperate channels or even bank together, but do you need it? We have lowband, VHF and UHF systems that work JUST FINE! Why fix what's not broken? Westmoreland Co's answer: "we were allocated the frequencies- if you don't use them, we lose them." Okay, then take them ! We don't need them 'cause they won't work! Big cities with unlimited $$$ try this system and it doesn't even work %75 for them.
Our whole area is predominately volunteer fire. Why switch to 800 for the fireband when "M" doesn't even have an 800 Minitor? Fayette still uses lowband dispatch for fire. In fact, they revert back to lowband frequently because of lousy 800 coverage. I'm sure "Mr. Fayette" will try to defend his prescious system and say that it never fails, but I live around here and I hear it myself.
Digital has NO place in public safety, at this current time. Maybe within five years or so, this will change.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with MODAT, but now since the digital subject was brought up....
It has NO place in public safety. Let the businesses use it and refine it first.
Here, in Pennsylvania, Westmoreland and Allegheny counties are trying to switch over to the 800 digital system. Our neighboring Fayette Co. has it and it sucks- regardless of what the Fayette officals say. Someoen is going to poke their head out and claim that they worked on the system and try to defend it, but it sucks. Period. If you lose JUST ONE repeater, you are screwed. No simplex on these systems!! Our terrain is nothing but hills and valleys. Cell phones don't work and neither will 800 in this area. Why have public safety on such an unreliable system? There are lives that can be lost here, people. It's nice that you can all have seperate channels or even bank together, but do you need it? We have lowband, VHF and UHF systems that work JUST FINE! Why fix what's not broken? Westmoreland Co's answer: "we were allocated the frequencies- if you don't use them, we lose them." Okay, then take them ! We don't need them 'cause they won't work! Big cities with unlimited $$$ try this system and it doesn't even work %75 for them.
Our whole area is predominately volunteer fire. Why switch to 800 for the fireband when "M" doesn't even have an 800 Minitor? Fayette still uses lowband dispatch for fire. In fact, they revert back to lowband frequently because of lousy 800 coverage. I'm sure "Mr. Fayette" will try to defend his prescious system and say that it never fails, but I live around here and I hear it myself.
Digital has NO place in public safety, at this current time. Maybe within five years or so, this will change.
Uhhh - Jack - what has digital got to do with MODAT which is an analog PTT ID format???
Anyway, back to MODAT, in the archives (July 13, 2000) of the old Batlabs discussion board, a poster named '911 radio' supplied some information about MODAT including a listing of the tone frequencies. I have run a few tests and this data seems to be correct.
The (Astrop) RSS lets you enter a four digit ID (from 0000 to 8999 being valid). The radio actually sends a burst of 7 tones. Each tone has a length of about 40 ms. The tones representing the ID digits are part of these seven. Perhaps someone can shed some light on why there are seven tones sent. Possibly the MODAT format allows a burst to represent more than an ANI, such as status or message as in MDC?
Regarding your LAPD comment CHEFA2001, was that in regard to Elroy's statement that you can't have MODAT in a CAI radio? I question that statement also, in view of the fact that I have an XTS3000 right here that does CAI and also does MODAT. A friend of mine has an Astro Saber with the same flash code and his also does both.
I do agree with Elroy that after you have heard it a couple of times the novelty wears off....
I am interested in the post that said there may be a ham repeater out there that uses MODAT for control. I know of a repeater system in the Chicago area that uses MDC for control, but I hadn't heard of one using MODAT.
Merry Christmas to all........
Anyway, back to MODAT, in the archives (July 13, 2000) of the old Batlabs discussion board, a poster named '911 radio' supplied some information about MODAT including a listing of the tone frequencies. I have run a few tests and this data seems to be correct.
The (Astrop) RSS lets you enter a four digit ID (from 0000 to 8999 being valid). The radio actually sends a burst of 7 tones. Each tone has a length of about 40 ms. The tones representing the ID digits are part of these seven. Perhaps someone can shed some light on why there are seven tones sent. Possibly the MODAT format allows a burst to represent more than an ANI, such as status or message as in MDC?
Regarding your LAPD comment CHEFA2001, was that in regard to Elroy's statement that you can't have MODAT in a CAI radio? I question that statement also, in view of the fact that I have an XTS3000 right here that does CAI and also does MODAT. A friend of mine has an Astro Saber with the same flash code and his also does both.
I do agree with Elroy that after you have heard it a couple of times the novelty wears off....
I am interested in the post that said there may be a ham repeater out there that uses MODAT for control. I know of a repeater system in the Chicago area that uses MDC for control, but I hadn't heard of one using MODAT.
Merry Christmas to all........
Ok, my 2 1/2 cents
LAPD actually used MODAT up to a few months ago until the system was switched over to DIGITAL. In a true digital system, there is no need for MODAT or MDC, and it is all in the digital data stream.
Now for the Digital debate.
In a PROPERLY configured system with the PROPER INFRASTRUCTER, it will work great for public safety. For example, the Connecticut State Police last year turned on their 800MHz DIGITAL Smartzone (or Smartzone OmniLink) system. This replaced their 1930's lowband system. Currently they are keeping all of the low band radios in service for two years until all the bugs have been worked out and all the mobiles installed. The CSP Trooper all have their own vehicles.
However, they have have not had any major problems, and all of the troopers that I have talked to loved it (wouldn't anyone converting from a non-repeaters low band system?).
They made the infrastructre a top priority. They wanted 100% state coverage, last I heard, they had at least 98%, as motorola told them it would take a few more towers (which the state says Motorola should pay for since it was spec'd in the contract, but thats a different story).
Also look at some of the other digital systems in place without problems. There are quite a few. If you have the right people on the prodject, and you invest the capital, then it works.
I have been in government work long enought to see how these people in governments work.... "we don't need that, so we are not going to pay for that", or "yeah I don't care what they say, it should work so that's what we are doing". Its that attitude and stubborness that we as public safety personel have to deal with. Then in the end, they say (the admin) its not their fault, its the contractors.
Yes there are some idiot's at Motorola or GE that really suck and could play into it, but most of it comes down to the people paying for them. Mot and GE WANT us to buy all the stuff, its just that we don't want to pay for the proper install, so we get the crap system.
FYI- CSP uses XTS3000's for portables, and W4 and some W3's remote mobiles. They also have GPS/MDT links with the radios, its a really cool system.
LAPD actually used MODAT up to a few months ago until the system was switched over to DIGITAL. In a true digital system, there is no need for MODAT or MDC, and it is all in the digital data stream.
Now for the Digital debate.
In a PROPERLY configured system with the PROPER INFRASTRUCTER, it will work great for public safety. For example, the Connecticut State Police last year turned on their 800MHz DIGITAL Smartzone (or Smartzone OmniLink) system. This replaced their 1930's lowband system. Currently they are keeping all of the low band radios in service for two years until all the bugs have been worked out and all the mobiles installed. The CSP Trooper all have their own vehicles.
However, they have have not had any major problems, and all of the troopers that I have talked to loved it (wouldn't anyone converting from a non-repeaters low band system?).
They made the infrastructre a top priority. They wanted 100% state coverage, last I heard, they had at least 98%, as motorola told them it would take a few more towers (which the state says Motorola should pay for since it was spec'd in the contract, but thats a different story).
Also look at some of the other digital systems in place without problems. There are quite a few. If you have the right people on the prodject, and you invest the capital, then it works.
I have been in government work long enought to see how these people in governments work.... "we don't need that, so we are not going to pay for that", or "yeah I don't care what they say, it should work so that's what we are doing". Its that attitude and stubborness that we as public safety personel have to deal with. Then in the end, they say (the admin) its not their fault, its the contractors.
Yes there are some idiot's at Motorola or GE that really suck and could play into it, but most of it comes down to the people paying for them. Mot and GE WANT us to buy all the stuff, its just that we don't want to pay for the proper install, so we get the crap system.
FYI- CSP uses XTS3000's for portables, and W4 and some W3's remote mobiles. They also have GPS/MDT links with the radios, its a really cool system.
It's sure good to see that somebody took the time to try to do things right. Most places that go to 800 do it on a certain$$$$ budget and end up with junk. Proper design and repeater location is essential as is the proper number of repeaters. The sites gotta have backup power too, unlike many repeaters around here.
I remember reading in MRT magazine a couple of years ago, I believe it was Kansas City, but I could be wrong. The city wanted to sue Motorola because the newly installed public safety trunking system had major issues with coverage & reliability, forcing them to use their older existing systems. Lots of hoopla at the time. As it turns out, the city had no leg to stand on, as Motorola had delivered exactly what the city ordered. The original quote from Motorola was in excess of $36 million dollars, but the municipal bean counters had a third party (don't know who) engineer the system, with the final price tag around $18-24 million (the numbers are a little fuzzy, I only read the article once). Point being, the city brought their problems upon themselves. I wonder how many other places have done the same?
A point could be made that Motorola should never have sold the system since they KNEW it would not work as needed, but money talks, and they were legally protected.
Motorola engineered a two zone, 68 site, Astro capable, SmartZone Omnilink system here in Nova Scotia. The amount of engineering involved with a project of this scale is absolutely mind boggling. It's difficult if not impossible to comprehend how it all fits together unless you're directly & deeply involved with the infrastructure. In this case, the time was taken, the money was spent, and the system works! There are always detractors & people resistant to change, but the various agencies I've dealt with have been extremely positive about the system. They should be, the portable coverage is better than the old system's mobile coverage was. You get what you pay for, unfortunately, it ain't cheap!
My two cents...
Todd
A point could be made that Motorola should never have sold the system since they KNEW it would not work as needed, but money talks, and they were legally protected.
Motorola engineered a two zone, 68 site, Astro capable, SmartZone Omnilink system here in Nova Scotia. The amount of engineering involved with a project of this scale is absolutely mind boggling. It's difficult if not impossible to comprehend how it all fits together unless you're directly & deeply involved with the infrastructure. In this case, the time was taken, the money was spent, and the system works! There are always detractors & people resistant to change, but the various agencies I've dealt with have been extremely positive about the system. They should be, the portable coverage is better than the old system's mobile coverage was. You get what you pay for, unfortunately, it ain't cheap!
My two cents...
Todd
I saw in a previous post that IMBE radios do not support MODAT. I have a IMBE Astro Saber that has it as one of the features in the flashcode,and the radio encodes MODAT. Not that I am saying anyone is wrong, but just an observation, and yes, it IS an IMBE radio not VSLEP. And LAPD has stopped using MODAT now that they are on an ASTRO system. For awhile they were simulcasting analog and digital channels and you could actually hear the MODAT tones in ASTRO mode (being transmitted from the radios on the analog channel and simulcasted on the digital side) and it sounded VERY strange.
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Elroy Jetson
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- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:00 pm
I'd have to go back and check my notes, but I think they'd show that MODAT is not compatible on an IMBE Astro SPECTRA, but is compatible with IMBE Astro Sabers and XTS-3000's. I should have mentioned that earlier. This lack of MODAT compatibility with IMBE mobile radios is apparently due to limitations in the firmware in FLASH memory.
Only so much can be crammed in there, so MODAT was an axed feature.
Elroy
Only so much can be crammed in there, so MODAT was an axed feature.
Elroy
How so?? The equipment we use here isn't any different than what you use...there is no Motorola training course for "Canadian" products, because they're all the same. I'd like a few examples, because it's news to me.On 2001-12-26 22:37, jim wrote:
What really sucks is that Canada has access to better 800 equipment than the US because of the FCC....and it's cheaper$$$ too!
Same goes for the prices, we have to have everything imported, the prices are sky-high!
Tell me what you think we pay for a particular radio, and I'll enlighten you to the actual cost.
Todd
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Bugs Bunny
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- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:00 pm
I agree totally. Usually the US list price is the Canadian dealers price in $CAD. Though the way MOTCAN has been increasing prices every few months, this will be changed. Also if you are a dealer in the great white north, try to bid on a large system. Just watch how MOTCAN comes a screaming at you! OUCH!!!
Bugs
Bugs
I know this is off topic somewhat, but since there was talk about different radios used in various shows & movies I thought I would post my question here. Sorry if I offend anyone with the off topic post.
I recall a movie which was very similiar to the storyline of "Enemy of the State", or "The Net", but dealt with the Russian Mob- (i think) and they were chasing some girl for some reason. They were using all kinds of fancy computers and radios to track her, mostly out of a van I think, they used computers to "follow" her credit card usage, activate her car's LOJAC (they called it car track of something else though) and such.....
I cannot recall the name of this movie, but if anyone knows, could you please post the name or if you don't want to be flamed on there for this post (like I may), then please private message me.
Thanks very much..
I recall a movie which was very similiar to the storyline of "Enemy of the State", or "The Net", but dealt with the Russian Mob- (i think) and they were chasing some girl for some reason. They were using all kinds of fancy computers and radios to track her, mostly out of a van I think, they used computers to "follow" her credit card usage, activate her car's LOJAC (they called it car track of something else though) and such.....
I cannot recall the name of this movie, but if anyone knows, could you please post the name or if you don't want to be flamed on there for this post (like I may), then please private message me.
Thanks very much..