2003 Tahoe coming along nicely!

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:01 am

I have the Smart siren installed, UHF MCS2000 installed, speaker installed (despite drilling through and having to replace the A/C condenser, LOL). 4 rear hideaways, 2 linear microthin grill strobes in the bumper. Need to install LED microlites in the grill and 2 hideaways in the headlights. Console should be in in about 1.5 weeks. I did 2 of the 6 antennas this morning. Ill have to get some pictures for everyone when its comepleted. Thanks!

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:59 am

Please don't say you tried to put the NMO mount in from underneath they are meant to be dropped in from the top side of the mounting area.

Drilled out the AC condenser? nice.....

Just what do you do again to use all the emergency warning gear?

TomSlick · Post by **TomSlick** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 10:58 am

I used the same type of hole saw to install an AS low-profile NMO, and it fit just fine.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:33 pm

apco25 wrote:Please don't say you tried to put the NMO mount in from underneath they are meant to be dropped in from the top side of the mounting area.

Not always. I just did one on my truck and 2 on a friends car that were designed to be installed form the inside -> out.

JAYMZ · Post by **JAYMZ** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:04 pm

Code3Response wrote:(despite drilling through and having to replace the A/C condenser, LOL).

Nice one... forget to look at what you were drilling.... lolololol

Very unfortunate though.

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:07 pm

Matt,

Before you get going to far on your vehicle, make sure you read the California Vehicle Code with regards to sirens in vehicles, also if you have RED or BLUE lights you might check that out too, it state that you must be a government vehicle or have an emergency vehicle permit from the CHP. They DO NOT issue to private citizens and NEVER for POV's.

Be carefull or you will get 3 hots & a cott.

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:40 pm

Thanks for the reminder Stan - all vehicle complies 100% to CVC. As to the mounts, well, uh - I went inside-out

Turned out fine though. Nice to know you go outside-in for the others though. Thanks!

central150 · Post by **central150** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 12:17 am

I just put in three NMO mounts in my roof and went from inside to outside... It worked pretty good.. But I can now see that they would fit better going from the outside in...

Tony

RESCUE161 · Post by **RESCUE161** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:25 am

There are two different types of mounts. I have both, but I like the Outside-in better. The inside-out have a very small hole, but are too long, so I don't use them.

Scott

jim · Post by **jim** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:56 am

Why is it that you have a mostly national standard on everything in the US......then there's California's version of life? Everything in California is different that the rest of the US-especially their Nazi-like EPA standards.

And what's up with this steady-burn red light? Who was the Eienstein that thught you can see a red halogen light that doesn't flash- in bright California sunlight?

If you take a dump in your own bathroom in California, you you have to be in compliance with some chapter in order to do so without the Tidy-Bowl police coming? (with their steady burn red)

It will all be over when everything east of the San Andreas Fault falls off into the Atlantic.

Threeshot223 · Post by **Threeshot223** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:24 pm

Well, from looking at Code3's install layout, he better be a cop, otherwise everything other than the radios is illegal. Everything- amber, clear, purple, green....all illegal. Tow trucks and private security cars can have amber, and there are permits for private ambulance (which follows the same rules as any fire/med unit), but that's about it. Of course, you then have the oddities that are the trademark of living in California:
You can have amber decklights, so long as they light up or flash "as a component of deceleration" (an amber brake light?) Even then, that's pushing it (and if you're powering Deckblasters off your brakelights....hmm...).

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:49 pm

Don't forget California or the people republic of california is EXTREMELY anti-gun - most normal weapons are banned there.

The bastards!

I agree, let it sink into the ocean.

As for the steady burn red light I believe that is simply a hold over from the days before strobes, rotators, flashers way back in the incadenscent days.

Like 1920's squad cars.

elkbow · Post by **elkbow** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 7:45 pm

Back to the original post by Matt, when you cut the 3/4" hole for the NMO, they will fit fairly tight through the hole. You shouldn't have to dremel them out, then again if you installed from the bottom, would be tough to get through. Feed them from the top, cable first of course, then square them off as much as possible, may take a light tap to get them through the hole.

Threeshot223 · Post by **Threeshot223** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:24 pm

OT again......but, you'd be surprised at how visible the steady red light is. It's called a "take down" light, and is basically a for-sure signal that the officer behind you is pulling YOU over. Quite visible, and most LEV's have two of them.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:28 am

A takedown is a white flood or spot (depending on lens) that is in the front of the bar. They are not colored, just white.

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Thu May 29, 2003 10:12 am

Matt...

a) you told me you had contracts with area agencies, and did installs for them all the time.

b) you told me you had a 2-bay install shop w/ warehouse.

So, why is it you can't drill a simple 3/4" hole the right way?

Why is it you can't figure out how to install a NMO?

Why is that you drilled out the AC condenser?

These are things that an seasoned car installer should know how to do right.

Who are you fooling?

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 29, 2003 1:02 pm

jim wrote:And what's up with this steady-burn red light? Who was the Eienstein that thught you can see a red halogen light that doesn't flash- in bright California sunlight?

If you take a dump in your own bathroom in California, you you have to be in compliance with some chapter in order to do so without the Tidy-Bowl police coming? (with their steady burn red)

It will all be over when everything east of the San Andreas Fault falls off into the Atlantic.

That steady burn red light is one of the best traffic movers I have ever seen - don't knock it! I have gotten several chances to get field time with CHP since last year, and the red takedowns kick ass. Their cleantops have a 55w red halogen takedown center mounted high out the windshield, and the left Unity spotlight has a 6" red halogen bulb instead of clear spotlamp. The combo throws a lot of light. Granted, intersections aren't lit up as well, but I saw zero intersection incursions with their light package - compared to 1 a day by us with lightbars. Personally, I think it is the CHP driver training, but that's another topic.

You fire that red steady burn up, and people a mile down the road are pulling over...no lie. I wouldn't have believed it of I didn't see it. I liked it so much, I retrofitted a few of our JetStrobe bars with existing white takedowns to red, and it makes a difference. There is no mistake about an emergency vehicle being behind you.

I vote in favor of the red steady burn.....it works - very well.

-Jimmy

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 2:47 pm

Hahaha Jon, well, at least I have the smarts to know that burglary is a BAD thing. And by the way, the A/C Condenser was not my fault - it was a factory defect as told to me by a worker at the chevy place. The brace I was drilling through was bent, therefore having the bit slip due to the anle. Anyways, what is insurance for for installation companies if they are perfect? And yes, I actually have a 4 bay install area and warehouse that I use, for your information.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu May 29, 2003 3:08 pm

That didn't really answer all the questions he asked. Can you explain the burglary thing?

A TAKEDOWN IS NOT A STEADY BURNING RED LIGHT!!!!! Takedoens are white and for flood/spot illumination of things in front of the vehicle. Steady burn red lights are called steady burn red lights. If there is a nick-name for them, I haven't heard it yet, I'm sure there is some funky names for them but it isn't Takedown.

Jonathan KC8RYW · Post by **Jonathan KC8RYW** » Thu May 29, 2003 3:14 pm

For the record, I was never convicted of burglary.

Post by Pj » Thu May 29, 2003 3:16 pm

A steady red and/or blue light is known as the California Red Light or California identification light.

CA has some weird laws, but from what I understand, a steady on red light is all that you need to have in order to be considered an emergency vehicle, or something like that.

If you are ever in LA, or watch the LAPD show, you will see a good amount of slicktops that just have a dash/window mounted red light in the front.

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 3:52 pm

Close PJ. It is a red steady burn to the front, visible to at least 500 feet, a flashing amber to the rear visible for at least 500 feet, and a siren. I have seen units run just that, the bare minimum. Makes no sense, but whatever they think!

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:02 pm

Ok, well to end the arguement I went and quickly looked at popular public safety equipment makers about the "red light" issue.

Concensus is:

"Steady burn red" or "California steady burn red"

I'm satisfied, how 'bout you Matt?

This means I have equipped some cars both a steady burn red light, and a white takedown.

Fair enough?

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:04 pm

Code3Response wrote:Close PJ. It is a red steady burn to the front, visible to at least 500 feet, a flashing amber to the rear visible for at least 500 feet, and a siren. I have seen units run just that, the bare minimum. Makes no sense, but whatever they think!

The big Cali thing is steady burn red to the front, and flashing amber/blue to the rear. I like it...amber/blue together is more effective anyway because they are brighter colors.

BTW, Code3....I gotta know one thing: If you are Cali, even in amber, most of what you are doing is against CVC. What's the point? Hell, I like lights (we all do, right?) but if ya'll can't use 'em for anything constructive, what's the point? No offense or anything, but WHY???

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:08 pm

Tell me what is illegal about my setup, please.

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:14 pm

How about a CHP officer inspecting you vehicle??? I know a few who would be happy and they are right in your area. Remember Matt, I have your address and I have LOTS of friends. MAKE SURE IT's LEGAL or it could get you in serious trouble.

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:25 pm

Like I said, legal. Siren tones disabled on smart siren. Strobes are clear and amber. No reds, no blues, no siren tones.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:26 pm

Code3Response wrote:Tell me what is illegal about my setup, please.

I think what he is getting at is WHY DO YOU HAVE THEM! You can make your lighting comply with the vehicle code and that's great but if you have no use for it, just having them is a violation of it. Since when were clear flashing lights in the free-for-all catagory and do the ambers even have a purpose other than just to have them?

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:27 pm

CVC 25250-25282 lays out everything that a vehicle can and can't have in it for lights. It doesn't say guys with Tahoes can have amber/clear stobes or LED's. You're not State, County or Muni....you didn't say you had any formal connection as a FF or disaster service worker...are you going to tow with the Tahoe? Probably not. What about school bus, highway department, utility company, tree trimming, aerial lift, HazMat, ag department, garbage truck, house moving truck, oversized load (with restrictions).....NO....

....My personal fave:

"25267. Vehicles used by mosquito abatement districts......." NO...

....or a pilot car, funeral poss., livestock hearding, dead deer picker-upper, school district, garbage truck, bus, USPS, land surveyor, HSV (human services vehicle....geezer transport), armored car (red while getting held up only), water tender or construction on public roads?

Nope.

***However, there is this:

25268. No person shall display a flashing amber warning light on a
vehicle as permitted by this code except when an unusual traffic
hazard exists.

25269. No person shall display a flashing or steady burning red
warning light on a vehicle except as permitted by Section 21055 or
when an extreme hazard exists.

But that still doesn't give a reason to have all that stuff!

If CHP stopped you and they saw your control heads and the SmartSiren and your plate didn't come back to a muni, they'd be asking you 27 1/2 questions about you why got the stuff and even if they didn't know about the hideaways, they'll probably do a walk-around and see the grill lights and ask 53 more questions, and then want you to turn them on so they could what color they were. Hell, they can't consent search because of the ACLU till 2006, they need something to do!

Granted, I did not see where it openly lists mere possession as a problem. Then again, I didn't look at the fines section, either.

I'm not ripping on you in particular Matt, but this was an intriquing topic, and I was bored.

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:38 pm

OK, here it is spelled out:

For one, its a demo vehicle for my company, due to me being a distributor for lighting companies, therefore I show off my equipment.

As far as CVC:

25259.1. (a) Any vehicle operated by a disaster service worker who
has received training in accordance with subdivision (b) and used by
that worker in the performance of emergency or disaster services
ordered by lawful authority during a state of war emergency, a state
of emergency, or a local emergency, as those terms are defined in
Section 8558 of the Government Code, may display flashing amber
warning lights to the front, sides, or rear while at the scene of the
emergency or disaster.

Volunteer with local Sheriffs Dept search and rescue group who acts during emergencies (such as local nuclear power plant exploding)

25278. Any vehicle owned or operated by a land surveyor or civil
engineer licensed to practice in this state may display flashing
amber warning lights to the front, sides, or rear, if the vehicle is
engaged in any phase of a project that requires surveying or
surveying related activities to be performed on a highway, or in the
vicinity of a highway, and the vehicle is parked on the highway or
moving at a speed lower than the normal flow of traffic. The use of,
or absence of, amber warning lights as authorized in this section
shall not serve as the basis for any civil action, a defense to a
civil action, or establish negligence as a matter of law or
negligence per se for comparative fault purposes.

Registered Civil Engineer in the State of California

Hows that?

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:42 pm

If you disable the siren tones and you can re-enable them in the vehicle without an electronic technician (I don't know that unit) then guess what you are Illegal, the lights will get you in trouble, and per the CHP probably your vehicle impounded so they can do a more precise inspection of what you have, remember they can impound the vehicle and YOU (arrest) with the amount of PC that you are giving them with what is in your vehicle, also if you have the frequencies of the police in your radio's, even if it is just RX they might not understand that and look at it is that is a real radio and take it for that reason also.

If you don't have a reason for the equipment then don't have it, especially here in CA. The CHP is pretty tough and most of the other LE agencies do not take kindly to this type of stuff. You will at best get a JACKET with LE that says to BEWARE. If you ever plan on going into LE even if you never get in trouble your JACKET will follow you forever.

Take heed Matt, this is for your own good, there are many LE types on this board that will concure with what I am telling you.

No one wants to see you in trouble.

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:50 pm

USPSS wrote:If you disable the siren tones and you can re-enable them in the vehicle without an electronic technician (I don't know that unit) then guess what you are Illegal,

Ok, the CHP guys are smart, but how the hell will most know that the SS can be reconfigured on the fly? They won't. You push a button, it don't make any noise. They will be happy that there is no siren (maybe?).

We know what that stuff does, and the CHP fleet install guys know, but past that...not many know or care.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu May 29, 2003 4:55 pm

Thats great, so how do you get flashing clear strobes out of that?

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Thu May 29, 2003 5:02 pm

you guys would have a feild day with my truck i guess.
Amber LFL amber hide-a-ways and clear in my rear brake lights.

Up here in CT every one has lights. for all kinds of things

hell the CT state Animna is the contruction barracade

Post by **Code3Response** » Thu May 29, 2003 5:07 pm

Clear is unregulated in CA, as told to me by CHP. And no the SS cannot be configured "on the fly" I would need access to inside the console, meaning removing the seats and physically pulling it out to configure. So tell me stan, why do YOU have radios and lights in all of your vehicles? I hear all of these stories about all your radios and lights, and you having an MDT in your car with access to CLETS and NCIC, etc and your own unit number and things like that - you are a badgemaker, correct? Not a sworn LEO? BTW Stan, not coming off mean, just intrigued by all of the gear you have in there, especially those new jaguars

Post by Pj » Thu May 29, 2003 5:48 pm

In many states, clear is considered "white". Lets face it, its white light since the strobes don't flash clear...if they did, you wouldn't see it!

I believe Stan is connected to a LE department in a sworn way. CA has many peace officer titles and oppurtunities. Trust me, you cannot get buy a computer, CPCD (somthing like that) modem or radio modem and get onto the PD networks without written authorization, serial numbers and a host of other things.

Lets just try to stay on topic here. (Been guilty on that subject!) Most people here that are connected to a public safety enity have very strong thoughts on the light/siren subject, and there are good reasons for them. Mostly they are giving you a warning so we don't have to tell you "See I told you so!" later.

I believe that the wanna be cop or firefighter will become more of a problem shortly with the advent of LED lighting, hideaway strobes getting into the mainstream car market (perfomance lighting, auto parts stores etc). Because of this, people like us that DO use them in a legal fashion WILL be hasseled more by law enforcement, and end up losing privliedges due to the action of one person.

Just something to think about...

BTW Stan, I still like that Escondio eagle top badge...if I could just get a few more people to sign up, I may place an order!

KC8NIY · Post by **KC8NIY** » Fri May 30, 2003 5:00 pm

I know it's off topic from the original post, but this is an interesting thread. Here's Michigan MVC links:

Lights - http://www.michigan.gov/documents/after ... 8570_7.pdf

Siren -
http://198.109.173.11/mileg.asp?page=ge ... cl-257-706

Violators beware, good luck convincing a judge of why you have them!! You'll be clasified as an 'ambulance chaser' at best, if not impersonating

007 · Post by **007** » Fri May 30, 2003 6:54 pm

I like Michigan's law....simple to read and straightforward.

gws · Post by **gws** » Sat May 31, 2003 4:32 am

So are stock amber hazard lights on a vehicle illegal in michigan? I dont see any permited use by the MI list. If they are permitted, would aux strobes behind the same amber lense be legal?

I know down here in ohio, there are lots of people out in the rural country that have amber stobes/revolving.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 31, 2003 6:21 am

GWS- Note the tittle of the sections... "AFTERMARKET Lighting". Stock hazzard lights are not aftermarket.

I notice it says that emergency vehicles (police, fire, ems, and personal) are not allowed to use amber. I would imagine that part is somewhat ignored. It's pretty stupid in fact, probably made by someone who wasn't thinking.

KC8NIY · Post by **KC8NIY** » Sat May 31, 2003 9:29 am

Matt,

Amber is used on relatively few vehicles around here. EMD uses a single strobe to the rear, and a few FF POV's have a single amber rotator. Local EMS uses several strobes to the rear. No PD incorporate them that I can think of.

-Ben

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 31, 2003 11:35 am

So they haven't jumped on that bandwagon yet. Well, out here, everything has amber on it somewhere....

Ambulances, most have at least the one required by the federal KKK specs in the rear. Some are more elaborate and have several.

99.9% of all police vehicle are edge bars with at least one amber strobe or halogen to the rear.

Any new fire apparatus has some amount of amber in the rear from the manufacturer. I am phasing it in into our older trucks as I replace old lights with new.

Any of the above may have Traffic Advisors which would also be amber.

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Sat May 31, 2003 1:36 pm

i have heard there Arr OSHA Amber regs as well on what kinds of vehicles are required to show Amber to rear or 360 to vehicle.
this includes polics fire ems and Dot Contruction vehciles

and i also hard that is some do not go along with what state vehcile regs are delaign with priave contruction vehicle

gws · Post by **gws** » Sat May 31, 2003 4:48 pm

On my 56 chevy pickup hazards are not stock. Any 4ways are "AFTERMARKET" on this truck.

nmfire10 wrote:GWS- Note the tittle of the sections... "AFTERMARKET Lighting". Stock hazzard lights are not aftermarket.

Threeshot223 · Post by **Threeshot223** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:34 pm

To sum up CA laws, you're better off not installing anything at all.

BUT....Code3 says that his car is being built as a demo vehicle.

YES...technically, the lighting may be illegal.

BUT....since LEO's generally do not exist in a vacuum, I dont see where there would be a problem with a CHP or other police agency.

It may be a good idea to cover up the lighting when it's not in use, though.

Post by Pj » Sat May 31, 2003 6:22 pm

Well, in CA, if you have any red or blue that you can see THRU all the amber lighting, then your lucky!

Last time I was in LA, the newer medics had RED/AMBER/RED in the lightbar in the front, as well in the intersection lights. Thought that was a little strange instead of white/red.

Post by **Code3Response** » Sat May 31, 2003 7:04 pm

Well Thresshot, I checked with a CHP fleet tech and he inspected the vehicle and said no problems, seeing as I cited 2 CVC codes that they were legal under, as well as Sheriffs Dept search and resuce, as well as being a dealer for almost every product in the vehicle, plus everything being hidden when off (not like a I have a Suer freedom liberty edge 50000 LED, strobe, etc etc etc in red and blue on top!) So it sounds as if I should be alright, as long as common sense is applied.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:15 pm

Sigh, it just never ends. Reminds me of my X9000 purchasing experience recently.

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:22 pm

but the libery bar is clar when it is off. you dont see colors

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 4:06 pm

Information on CVC section AMBER LIGHTS

Disaster Service Workers: Flashing Amber Warning Lights

25259.1. (a) Any vehicle operated by a disaster service worker who has received training in accordance with subdivision (b) and used by that worker in the performance of emergency or disaster services ordered by lawful authority during a state of war emergency, a state of emergency, or a local emergency, as those terms are defined in Section 8558 of the Government Code, may display flashing amber warning lights to the front, sides, or rear while at the scene of the emergency or disaster.

(b) Any disaster service worker operating a vehicle that displays flashing amber warning lights shall receive a training course from the public agency, disaster council, or emergency organization described in Section 3101 of the Government Code concerning the safe operation of the use of flashing amber warning lights prior to operating a vehicle that displays flashing amber warning lights.

(c) A person operating a vehicle that is authorized to display flashing amber warning lights under this section shall either completely cover or remove those lights when the lights are not in use.

Added Sec. 1, Ch. 144, Stats. 1997. Effective January 1, 1998.

RED LIGHTS

Use of Red Warning Light

25269. No person shall display a flashing or steady burning red warning light on a vehicle except as permitted by Section 21055 or when an extreme hazard exists.

Added Ch. 653, Stats. 1961. Effective September 15, 1961

And the following
Exemption of Authorized Emergency Vehicles

21055. The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle is exempt from Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 21350), Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 21650), Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 21800), Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 21950), Chapter 6 (commencing with 22100), Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 22348), Chapter 8 (commencing with Section 22450), Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 22500), and Chapter 10 (commencing with Section 22650) of this division, and Article 3 (commencing with Section 38305) and Article 4 (commencing with Section 38312) of Chapter 5 of Division 16.5, under all of the following conditions:

(a) If the vehicle is being driven in response to an emergency call or while engaged in rescue operations or is being used in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law or is responding to, but not returning from, a fire alarm, except that fire department vehicles are exempt whether directly responding to an emergency call or operated from one place to another as rendered desirable or necessary by reason of an emergency call and operated to the scene of the emergency or operated from one fire station to another or to some other location by reason of the emergency call.

(b) If the driver of the vehicle sounds a siren as may be reasonably necessary and the vehicle displays a lighted red lamp visible from the front as a warning to other drivers and pedestrians.

A siren shall not be sounded by an authorized emergency vehicle except when required under this section.

Amended Ch. 1017, Stats. 1977. Effective September 23, 1977 by terms of an urgency clause.

SIRENS

Sirens

27002. No vehicle, except an authorized emergency vehicle, shall be equipped with, nor shall any person use upon a vehicle any siren except that an authorized emergency vehicle shall be equipped with a siren meeting requirements established by the department.

Amended Ch. 723, Stats. 1979. Effective January 1, 1980

EMERGENCY VEHICLE DEALER

Lamps and Sirens: Ambulances and Firetrucks

25806. Sections 24003 and 27002 shall not apply to the installation of warning lamps and sirens on ambulances or firetrucks which are used solely for demonstration purposes in the sales work of a licensed dealer, distributor, or vehicle manufacturer and shall not apply to ambulances or firetrucks being operated on a highway solely for the purpose of delivery from the licensee to a purchaser. Warning lamps shall be removed or covered with opaque material and the siren controls disabled whenever the vehicle is upon a highway.

Added Ch. 217, Stats. 1982. Effective January 1, 1983.

2003 Tahoe coming along nicely!

2003 Tahoe coming along nicely!

Re: 2003 Tahoe coming along nicely! NMO Question, though