Intrinsically Safe/ Factory Mutual

Zaputil · Post by **Zaputil** » Wed May 14, 2003 7:17 am

Has anyone ever heard of an incident where a radio or cell phone actually sparked an explosion?

I noticed at the gas station yesterday as I was filling up a sticker on the pump banning use of cell phones/radios/and pagers.

I started wondering how my intrinsically safe Advisor Elite could ingnite the gas pump...

Seems kinda like "fear of the unknown" from the gas station.

Are there any documented cases of an incident out there or even rumors?

VolFirefighter911 · Post by **VolFirefighter911** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:38 am

Most, if not all, Motorola portables and pagers are intrinsically safe as they are marketed heavily to the fire service as well as hazmat teams and other applications where this safeguard is necessary. I know for a fact that the Minitor pagers and P1225 portables that our department uses are intrinsically safe.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:56 am

Ahh. Are you sure about that. Most everything I have seen, Intrinsically Safe was an added OPTION you COULD order at an additional cost.

Znarx · Post by **Znarx** » Wed May 14, 2003 12:27 pm

The radio devices at the gas pumps is very much a fear of the unknown...you have a better chance of igniting gas fumes that reach your overheated brake rotors than you do by talking on a cellphone (now a poorly grounded 110 watt lowband mobile on the other hand...)
...Z

RadioSouth · Post by **RadioSouth** » Wed May 14, 2003 12:41 pm

Don't know about the pagers but FM approval is an optional item on the radios. BTW- anyone know if there's any real difference in the radio other
than a certification label.

Zaputil · Post by **Zaputil** » Wed May 14, 2003 2:35 pm

I can descibe at length what Int. Safe and FM approval IS, and what it is there for. An FM approved radio is basically the same as any other radio off the assembly line, it is just inspected to a higher standard. Some models upgrade the seals among other things. You can send /\/\ your exsiting (supported) radios and have them upgraded to Intrisically Safe. Fire Depts and Manufacturing (refineries, corn milling, etc, any place with explosive material floating around) are the main customers for these radios.

I only want to know if anyone has ever heard of an actual incident/explosion/fire CAUSED by a radio/cell/pager.

PS. check Snopes.com here- even they say it's never happened...
http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

Thanks!
SZ

Post by **firemed9** » Wed May 14, 2003 4:52 pm

i hvae seen 3 reported cases where cell phones were thought to be involved in gasoline fume explosions. they were all NEXTEL phones, where the users were using Direct connect. If i can find the reports, i will post the link.

As for intrinisic radios from ma M, that is an option you can buy, but no radio from Motorola comes IS anymore. Minitor I and II were all IS, but the III and IV's never even had it as an option. I believe, and not 100% sure on this, but none of the digital radios have IS as an option anymore either.

Andy Brinkley · Post by **Andy Brinkley** » Wed May 14, 2003 5:29 pm

The Cell Phone / Gas pump story is indeed an Urban Myth, but static electricity discharges can ignite gas vapors while fueling your vehicle.

We had a local representative from the Petroleum Equipment Institute do a class at the fire station on the problems of static electricity and gasoline fires (complete with video footage of actual fires.) Everyone might want to check out:

http://www.pei.org/static/index.htm

Be safe !!!

EngineerZ · Post by **EngineerZ** » Wed May 14, 2003 6:40 pm

Here's a link to another paper on the cell phone in gas stations controversy, this one from Motorola:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1A851294
( http://www.motorola.com/mot/documents/0,1028,423,00.pdf )

--z

fire-medic8104 · Post by **fire-medic8104** » Wed May 14, 2003 6:52 pm

I remember getting a memo from Motorola that talked about a plant employee using a nextel on direct connect that caused an explosion resulting in third degree burns over 75% of his body. If I find it I will try to put the info on here.

werdnuts · Post by **werdnuts** » Wed May 14, 2003 7:13 pm

Fellow Batlabbers, once again, it is time to dispel the rumors about FM approval. (I explained this at length about a year ago.) Just to cover my ass, "I wish no offense to anyone." So, here goes...

Cell phones, pagers, and radios are all intrinsically safe by nature. That means they don't make sparks when you use them.

Physically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between an FM approved radio and one that is not. Ah-hem... WITH the exception of the sticker. Inspection (my arse), there is no difference there. OK, shhh... don't tell anyone! But here's the real dirt! The option, or extra money you pay for that neat little FM approval sticker, is for..... (brace yourselves)... INSURANCE!!! Yes, HOLY CRAP, the big M has been pulling one over on you all!!! OK, seriously, not really. What you are buying is a radio that is "guaranteed" not to cause any explosion. So, if for some unbelievable reason, some crack, CSI-like team, determines that a radio did cause an explosion, the extra money you paid for that little sticker will go towards the pricy defense and eventual settlement from that case. Now, if you are some FD or a chemical manufacturer out there, you are going to buy these radios w/ FM approval for one simple reason. Your insurance. If you can prove you have made the effort (or in this case, paid the extra money to protect YOUR insurance company), your insurance company will give you a higher rating and therefore, lower rates. One way or another, the insurance industry gets your money.

Let me give you an example. You go to buy a car... You buy one with side airbags, it costs more, but your car insurance gives you a discount for having the extra protection. The exact opposite works if you buy one without side airbags. You wouldn't get that discount. You might save on the cost of the car, but you will pay for in insurance over time.

With this all in mind, this is why radio shops that are 'certified' to work on FM equipment are such sticklers for making sure that the radio was FM approved to begin with. So, if you peel the sticker off, send your radio in, they might not give you a FM sticker with out proving that it was originally FM approved from the factory. Also, if you decide to work on your radio, you void your FM approval. Not a big deal, right. I guess not, unless you get caught.

I hope this clears things up. Although it seems like the big M is screwing you by selling you a pricy sticker, in the end it works out for the customer. So the big question really is -- do you or your organization truly benefit from getting FM approved equipment.

My opinion, (on a few, at least)...

FDs - Yes. (ah-hem... ISO ratings!)
PDs - ??? Maybe, maybe not.
Amateur radio folks - probably a waste unless you use it at work where it is required.
Companies - Depends on the Hazardous Materials and the risks that your company deals with. Most places, like Old Navy, it is a waste of money.

Hope this helps!

-werdnuts

werdnuts · Post by **werdnuts** » Wed May 14, 2003 7:22 pm

I remember getting a memo from Motorola that talked about a plant employee using a nextel on direct connect that caused an explosion resulting in third degree burns over 75% of his body. If I find it I will try to put the info on here.

Ha, probably his keys in his pocket... or the lighter he was flicking...

Heh...

fireman1417 · Post by **fireman1417** » Wed May 14, 2003 8:19 pm

I believe Shell Oil refining company sent an email to their employees a while back talking about the static electricity and cell phone issues. I just glanced at a printout of it but didn't read it in detail. I saw a video of a static electricity explosion at the fire station. I know dispensing gas into a portable container into the back of a pickup truck isn't a good idea either, better to take it out and put it on the ground. Now about the cell phones that is hard to believe, could they just be misdiagnosing a static electricity issue.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Thu May 15, 2003 4:08 am

OK, so far that makes sense. Now, how about the FM approved BATTERIES! Are those also no different or is there some special yadda yadda something BS about the batteries that makes them safer and really expensive.

kd4dbf · Post by **kd4dbf** » Thu May 15, 2003 4:28 am

We're talking strictly gasoline and not natural gas, right? In the late 70's or early 80's, we had an explosion in my city. Apparently a gas main ruptured and the local utility supervisor keyed the mic on his radio. That set it off. Killed a few people and leveled the lumber company at the leak site. Good thing it didn't affect the huge chemical plants near the site.

werdnuts · Post by **werdnuts** » Thu May 15, 2003 8:58 am

batteries are the same. they just put a different sticker on and give it a different model number. Obviously, testing of the design and the first model for production does occur. It has to be certified in the first place as a safe design...

N4UMJ · Post by **N4UMJ** » Thu May 15, 2003 9:04 am

werdnuts wrote: Physically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between an FM approved radio and one that is not. Ah-hem... WITH the exception of the sticker.
-werdnuts

I am looking at an internal sticker on the frame of my Saber 1 that says

"WARNING: FOR FACTORY MUTUAL APPROVED PRODUCTS, SUBSTITION OF COMPONENTS MAY IMPAIR INTRINCSIC SAFETY."

I have often wondered what components and is there a different design (schematic/parts #'s etc) for this "FM" type approved radio?

Guess you answered my question.

Eddie
N4UMJ

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu May 15, 2003 9:19 am

On FM approved batteries there is a nichrome strip inside which causes a warming of the air in the battery, it is so no explosive gases can enter the battery. this is one item that you need in an explosive athmosphere. and FM approval is VERY expensive. But like everyone says it is for the insurance, if you buy an FM radio and use a non FM battery NO INSURANCE, some companies say they have IS batteries but if it does not have the FM approval label then the radio manufacturer will not cover you.

werdnuts · Post by **werdnuts** » Thu May 15, 2003 12:31 pm

"WARNING: FOR FACTORY MUTUAL APPROVED PRODUCTS, SUBSTITION OF COMPONENTS MAY IMPAIR INTRINCSIC SAFETY."

-Eddie N4UMJ

They just want the FM certified people working on it. They dont want you to add parts, such as, aftermaket boards to the radio. that will void the FM. The actual parts are the same.

-werdnuts

dodge3500 · Post by **dodge3500** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 2:13 pm

Yes, the evil green. I work for a gas utility, and guess what, our STX's were bought IS, before I was in the comm group.

I am asked the question all the time, what does that mean? Can I carry it inside a gaseous enviorment? My reply is always the same. When that radio left the factory, with the IS battery, it was the best the industry could build to prevent accidental sparkng that could lead to an explosion. I ask them, have you ever abused the radio? Dropped it? Used it as a hammer? Then all bets are off.

I tell them if they do not feel comfortable walking into this enviorment with a lit Bic, don't take your radio, cell phone, pager, MDT, Palm Pilot, Watch, etc., etc., etc...

IS costs me a fortune. What a joke!

10-95 · Post by **10-95** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 2:19 pm

A few years ago, I think four years ago, an officer somewhere in Texas was burned to a crsip at the motor fleet pumps. it was believed the radio he was talking on at the time sparked it.

Frank

hfitzgerald · Post by **hfitzgerald** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:10 pm

The Cell Phone / Gas pump story is indeed an Urban Myth, but static electricity discharges can ignite gas vapors while fueling your vehicle.

Static Electricity is definatly a real and dangerous threat, I could rant for hours on end, but I'll let our most recent incident speak for me. This event took place on Feburary 25, 2003 and was caused by static electricity between two tanker trucks as the kerosene was being transered between them. Final investigation (which is not in this article) points to a non-functional or not-present grounding strap between the tankers, and the tankers to an earth ground.

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stori ... 3002.shtml

I find the following quote from the article quite funny:

He was fairly close by, but he made it to safety," Eric Gielow, a Holland attorney who represents Brenner Oil, said.

In actuality, the company worker had just started the kerosene transfer from one tanker to the other and began walking away from them. He was a good 30 feet from the two tankers when they detonated. The initial blast was so strong that it sent him airborne for some distance, and threw him clear of the initial 'vaporization' radius. Off the record, he said that he saw his vision go red from the expanding fireball. -which tossed him clear of the scene and thus avoided cremation. He escaped with minor cuts and bruises. No small miracle here!

God bless, and wear your grounding straps!!!
Fitz Fitzgerald.

The pictures above are what's left of 4 tankers and their service building.

601 · Post by **601** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:33 pm

How about someone removing or installing a battery at a gas pump? I'm sure the battery sparks enogh to cause an explosion. Don't IS radio manuals specifically tell you not to remove or install batteries in these areas?

007 · Post by **007** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:17 pm

werdnuts wrote:Amateur radio folks - probably a waste unless you use it at work where it is required.

Been to a hamfest lately?? You need an IS radio....75% STINK SOMETHING AWFUL!!

Nand · Post by **Nand** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:05 pm

There are a variety of approvals on both batteries and radios for all kinds of different applications. A FM intrinsically safe radio may be approved for one atmosphere and be totally unsafe in some other atmosphere. Atmospheres are divided in different “classes, divisions and groups”. Radios are approved for use in some of these groups, but not necessarily all of them as indicated on the label. Optional accessories also need to be approved for use with a particular radio.

Some of Motorola’s CSA approved intrinsically safe radios are limited to a power output of 2 watts. The proper CSA battery for that radio has current limiting that prevents this radio from drawing too much current. If you use this battery on a 4 or 5 watt radio, the radio will sound the low battery alert during TX.

In Ontario, both the government and the insurance companies both have an interest in that intrinsically safe radios are used where needed and approved by the testing agency of their choice.

The link below gives some idea of all the different groups.

http://www.ul.com/hazloc/techsummary.htm

Nand.

RapidCharger · Post by **RapidCharger** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 9:41 pm

Starting your car creates sparks. An overloaded trailer with a dragging chain makes sparks.

I always thought the whole issue behind using radios and explosions was because if you are in a blasting area where they were detonating explosives by radio control, then the potential is there to set it off. I had no idea intrinsically safe had anything to do with normal, everyday locations like a gas station. And I also didn't know it mattered for pagers and things like that. You learn something new every day! I guess that would explain the intrinsically safe batteries. At one time I asked someone what intrinsically safe meant, they explained it had to do with the color of the radio case matching the battery. Get it? Intrinsic... He was serious. I believed him.

If you buy an intrinisically safe battery, rest assured, it will match the color of your radio! PFFFT! HA.

I wonder if the use of latex gloves while pumping gas will protect me from static explosions. For a while I was seeing a lot of gas stations with glove dispensers, always thought that was to prevent the spread of coodies.

hooknladder · Post by **hooknladder** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:52 am

What happens if you have for instance an IS HT750 with an accessory such as a speaker mike or headset? Is it still IS with the /\/\ accessories bolted to it?

larryepage · Post by **larryepage** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:17 pm

We have a bulk flour storage/delivery system and are wrestling with the need to make sure we use only intrinsically safe radios to meet OSHA requirements. My research indicates that there seem to be two primary functions of intrinsically safe labelling:

1. The radios are generally no different from non-IS radios. But there are restrictions on shipment from the manufacturer of replacement labels. This is because an intrinsically safe radio is intended to be repaired only with exact replacement parts to ensure that it will continue to present no danger to the user. The green dot or green label is intended to serve as a flag to make sure that proper repair procedures are followed.

2. Intrinsically safe batteries do appear to be different. Specifically, they seem to include internal protection to limit current flow in case of a short circuit of the terminals. The purpose of this is to prevent the battery from exploding or overheating excessively and triggering an explosion. Some radio models include a programming flag if the battery being used is IS. The reason is that output voltage of these batteries can be approximately 0.5 volts lower due to the protection circuitry.

In terms of the comment about using the radio in a blasting area or other sensitive environment...sorry, but intrinsically safe doesn't turn you loose in these areas. The transmitter rf energy can still theoretically create an induced voltage or current in wiring to the blasting caps, meaning that there is a risk of unintended detonation. Aside from blasting cap issues, there are sensitive areas in a number of industrial locations where radio transmissions are not allowed, because they can interfere with proper operation of the equipment. Intrinsically safe radios will not help you in these areas, either. (My intrinsically safe radios still cause my speed to drop when I transmit from the front seat of my Ford Explorer, for instance.)

I don't have the reference, but there was another thread on this topic a couple of months ago. Do a search and look there for other comments.

Regards,

hfitzgerald · Post by **hfitzgerald** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:41 pm

larryepage wrote: (My intrinsically safe radios still cause my speed to drop when I transmit from the front seat of my Ford Explorer, for instance.)

Just curious, is that an early 90's Ford? -say around '92 or so? Just curious, -I remember that there were RF issues with the cruise control and a few other vehicle systems. It would freak people out when their car would begin accelerating when they keyed up the mic while driving with cruise control on. (Ham radio, Commercial, Law Enforcement, etc) Ford's standards are much higher today and during college, I designed automotive electronics that had to meet Ford's Electromagnetic Compatibility Requirements. Not fun. 2/3 of my project time was runnning RF tests and redesigning the prototypes after they failed.

God bless, (and sorry for the tangent),
Fitz Fitzgerald.

Nand · Post by **Nand** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:07 pm

hooknladder wrote:What happens if you have for instance an IS HT750 with an accessory such as a speaker mike or headset? Is it still IS with the /\/\ accessories bolted to it?

Some of the manuals indicate what accessories can be used with that specific intrinsically safe radio.

Nand.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:18 pm

What about the Saber R ?

I think that is FM approved right, it has the Green dot label on the batteries. Those put out well over 2 watts?

mancow

Nand · Post by **Nand** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:06 pm

mancow wrote:What about the Saber R ?

I think that is FM approved right, it has the Green dot label on the batteries. Those put out well over 2 watts?

mancow

The standards are slightly different from country to country. This may explain why CSA approved radios are mostly around 2 watts and FM approved radios are the typical 5 watts. It is not likely that the power level makes much of a difference. The inability to create a high-energy spark is what matters.

The items below are taken from Motorola’s catalogs. On their web site, they have some information that indicates that not all intrinsically safe radios meet the same requirements. This means that because a radio is intrinsically safe for some atmospheres, it may not meet the requirement of another atmosphere.

A Public Safety department that is looking for these types of radios should make sure that they actually meet the requirement for the locations that they expect to use these in.

Nand.

Here is some of Motorola’s info.

The government classifies as hazardous any areas where flammable gases such as acetylene, methane and hydrogen, or combustible dusts such as grain, coal, metals and fibers float in the air. When you work in these hazardous areas, both your two-way radio and the battery that powers it must be designed not to produce electrical sparks that could ignite those gases or dusts.

Radios and batteries that don’t produce such sparks are called “intrinsically safe.”

Motorola offers a wide selection of radios and batteries approved and certified by the agencies that regulate intrinsically safe equipment: the Factory Mutual Research Corporation (FM), the Canadian Standards Association (CSA), the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA), and/or CENELEC Approval Agencies.

Public Safety. Refineries. Recycling. Grain elevators. Chemical manufacturing. In these and other hazardous environments, a communication device built to help prevent igniting combustibles in the atmosphere is essential.

So, how are batteries made intrinsically safe? Actually it’s the battery and radio in combination, a system that makes designated Motorola batteries and radios intrinsically safe.

Motorola designs and builds a radio system to meet the specific requirements of a government or private Agency responsible for public protection. Most Motorola intrinsically safe products are certified by Factory Mutual (FM), an accredited, nationally recognized testing lab.

FM also writes and develops test methods for product safety standards, which include intrinsically safe standards. Other Agencies such as CENELEC, MSHA, or CSA may have other requirements specific to their standards.

Motorola two-way communication products are designed to meet these individual standards. To keep Motorola FM classified products functioning safely, users should consider the Motorola radio, battery, accessories and options as a whole system. Only Motorola Approved FM products should be used with intrinsically safe Motorola FM products.

Here are some guidelines to follow to keep your intrinsically safe Motorola radios working to protect you: You should not use a standard Motorola battery, or an FM-approved battery from another manufacturer, with an FM-approved Motorola radio. Likewise you should use only Motorola accessories and options that have been approved for that specific FM-approved Motorola radio.

Finally, you cannot field upgrade a Motorola radio to a FM-approval rating. Motorola intrinsically safe radio products are designed and manufactured as a unit and are only FM-approved direct from the factory.

larryepage · Post by **larryepage** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:29 am

hfitgerald--

My Explorer is a 1994. It doesn't do too bad with RF from outside antennas, but an HT on almost any band used in the front passenger seat drives it nuts. (Cruise control slows down, though, rather than speed up). HT from the driver's seat is almost as bad.

Regards,

Intrinsically Safe/ Factory Mutual

Intrinsically Safe/ Factory Mutual

I/S & Cell Phones

IS - Insurance, indeed