Ok, here's the deal.
We have a MSF5000 repeater with DVP-XL, VHF. Lately the guys have been complaining that the voice coming thru the repeater seems to "fade" in and out. Incoming audio to the console is 100%, but anything THRU the repeater or from the console out has the problem. The carrier seems normal, signal is strong, but the audio disappears. I have plugged our freq into the scanner and I hear the problem. The problem comes and goes as well.
The current line from the worthless service rep told my relief that sometimes a power surge will mess up a solinoid, and that the backup repeater will get selected but the main repeater light will still be on at the console. Then he said everything would have to resync etc. The PD and the tower are on seperate power grids and our UPS/generator keeps a log of any flux's, and the log has been clear. (We have no automatic repeater change thingy that we are aware of, and have always had to manually select the repeater.) My BS meter went into overload when I heard that.
Our main repeter is located across the parking lot at our new tower, and our backup repeater is in our old radio room. There is a night and day difference between the two, and you know incoming or outgoing which one is on.
Any thought before I blast the service company on Monday?
MSF5000 problem
Moderator: Queue Moderator
As far as I can tell, its clear only, but we really wounld noticed it when coded our securnet pretty much sucks.
About a half hour ago, we were unable to receive any field units for about 5 minutes. You could tx from the console, but could not hear any of the field units. The repeater wasn't even opening up.
As for the fade, I can only describe it as someone erasing the voice. There is no static involved. I have never heard it before.
I called the service company and spoke to the guy who was out to the PD the other day. He thinks that the relays for the backup repeater are kicking in by themselves and that maybe due to a power flux that the MSF5000 is being reset. However, when I hear the TX, there is no change in carrier, so I don't know. The other theroy that is kicking around is that a new antenna tower somewhere may be interfearing with the repeater input.
I am not too sure about that either. None of the classic signs of interference are present.
Today when the repeater went dead, I walked out to the truck and got the portable, and 50ft from the repeater, it wouldn't open until the 3rd try. I have MDC preamble and pre/post turned on, so there was plently of data/audio going in, in addtion to the voice.
Just seems odd.
About a half hour ago, we were unable to receive any field units for about 5 minutes. You could tx from the console, but could not hear any of the field units. The repeater wasn't even opening up.
As for the fade, I can only describe it as someone erasing the voice. There is no static involved. I have never heard it before.
I called the service company and spoke to the guy who was out to the PD the other day. He thinks that the relays for the backup repeater are kicking in by themselves and that maybe due to a power flux that the MSF5000 is being reset. However, when I hear the TX, there is no change in carrier, so I don't know. The other theroy that is kicking around is that a new antenna tower somewhere may be interfearing with the repeater input.
I am not too sure about that either. None of the classic signs of interference are present.
Today when the repeater went dead, I walked out to the truck and got the portable, and 50ft from the repeater, it wouldn't open until the 3rd try. I have MDC preamble and pre/post turned on, so there was plently of data/audio going in, in addtion to the voice.
Just seems odd.
Not that this is the answer to your problem, I wanted to add it anyway though.
We had our old dispatch system with GE MastrII repeater pulled from service when we went Orbacomm, and while things were at the 50% stage, we had old and new equipment running side by side with each other and had a constant problem of the repeater just getting stuck in the keyed position and would stay like that until t/o.
Make long story short, when the Motorola mdc decoder unit was cut of of the system, the line that it was hooked up to was simply cut about 12" behind the console and the wire ends were shorting out when anyone would mode things around on the desk.
I know this is a simple issue, but the service co was there almost 4 times for this reason before anyone knew what the problem was.
Good luck on your issue.
We had our old dispatch system with GE MastrII repeater pulled from service when we went Orbacomm, and while things were at the 50% stage, we had old and new equipment running side by side with each other and had a constant problem of the repeater just getting stuck in the keyed position and would stay like that until t/o.
Make long story short, when the Motorola mdc decoder unit was cut of of the system, the line that it was hooked up to was simply cut about 12" behind the console and the wire ends were shorting out when anyone would mode things around on the desk.
I know this is a simple issue, but the service co was there almost 4 times for this reason before anyone knew what the problem was.
Good luck on your issue.
Difficult to say, the information is conflicting. Your first post indicated that the consoles could always receive audio (via wireline off the MSF, I'm assuming), but could not always get out. Your last post says the opposite. Your service provider is grasping at straws until they arrive onsite & attempt to isolate the problem. I cannot say if there's any validity to what they're stating or not, since I'm not familiar with your particular setup. Do they have a history of not being knowledgeable/reliable? If so, scary...find someone else. If not, trust them to do their work. I will add that if this were our regional public safety system, my company would be there right now, not tomorrow!
Todd
Todd
Well, until I got there last year, there wasn't too much prevent. maitence with the system. The voice fade in/out problem started late last week, and now this deaf repeater thing started in the last two days. I only found out about the other occurances today when my relief came in. I thought that today was the first time.
It sounds like the tech really has no idea where to start as he is pretty puzzeled.
As a side note, when the equipment was moved out of the building and next to the tower, some yahoo never made a proper patch cable at the antenna jack. We would only be putting out about 2 watts (110 watt repeater) and the incoming rx was pretty bad. Come to find out, the yahoo's patch cable was barely making contact with the connector so only a couple of strands of wire were touching when it got really cold outside.
It sounds like the tech really has no idea where to start as he is pretty puzzeled.
As a side note, when the equipment was moved out of the building and next to the tower, some yahoo never made a proper patch cable at the antenna jack. We would only be putting out about 2 watts (110 watt repeater) and the incoming rx was pretty bad. Come to find out, the yahoo's patch cable was barely making contact with the connector so only a couple of strands of wire were touching when it got really cold outside.
Sometimes when equipment is moved, you end up with poor inter board connections. If you are in a high humidity area, this problem becomes even more of a problem.
If the tech is too weak on his trouble shooting, maybe a suggestion of killing all the power to the radio and just try reseating all the cable and board connections.
Look again at all the coax connections. If one is not careful is mateing up type N connections, you can bend or break the fingers in the female connector.
Hope this gives you a few ideas to look at in trying to locate your problem.
Jim
If the tech is too weak on his trouble shooting, maybe a suggestion of killing all the power to the radio and just try reseating all the cable and board connections.
Look again at all the coax connections. If one is not careful is mateing up type N connections, you can bend or break the fingers in the female connector.
Hope this gives you a few ideas to look at in trying to locate your problem.
Jim
Hi:
First I would like to say MSF5000's are
a VERY tough repeater to service. Unless
one has traning in the maintance of them, it
would be best to let a Factory Tech address
the problem.
You do have a problem since I have followed
the posts as your 1st one indicated all the
persons in the field were being herd " Clear " at the remote Location, and then
with a portable close to the repeater, you
were not able to access it.
This would lean towards a Control problem
in that the Repeater Decoder may be a little
flaky. Sometimes PD's listen in a open squelch mode via wire line and would explain
why you HT did not access the Repeat mode.
I would strongly urge you to gather more
data, as to Time of Day, Weather Conditions,
and see perhaps if you can Isolate what is
really happening....That is to say when you
see this " Fade " out on Receive, call the
Dispatcher on a Cell Phone and see if they
are hearing the person in the field OK.
That would be a Controller Problem. If on the
Other side, Both the Dispatcher and persons in the Field Experience a problem in hearing
each other, that could be related to a Transmitt Problem.
I had a unique problem with a MSF sometime
back....The Radio was Receiving just Fine. Transmitt Power was 75 Watts, and yet persons
in the Field were having a horrible time hearing the Dispatcher, and Field HT's
Come to find out the Unit was tied into a
RX-TX Combiner, and the TX antenna had developed a intermiitent problem.
Not to say that is the same as yours, but until all the spacific details can be seen,
a proper conclusion will be tough to reach.
One thing to ask for sure ! Ask how long
the tech has been servicing MSF5000's, that
will be a good clue. Most Techs I know tend
to run from them.
Nothing like Micors.
MS
First I would like to say MSF5000's are
a VERY tough repeater to service. Unless
one has traning in the maintance of them, it
would be best to let a Factory Tech address
the problem.
You do have a problem since I have followed
the posts as your 1st one indicated all the
persons in the field were being herd " Clear " at the remote Location, and then
with a portable close to the repeater, you
were not able to access it.
This would lean towards a Control problem
in that the Repeater Decoder may be a little
flaky. Sometimes PD's listen in a open squelch mode via wire line and would explain
why you HT did not access the Repeat mode.
I would strongly urge you to gather more
data, as to Time of Day, Weather Conditions,
and see perhaps if you can Isolate what is
really happening....That is to say when you
see this " Fade " out on Receive, call the
Dispatcher on a Cell Phone and see if they
are hearing the person in the field OK.
That would be a Controller Problem. If on the
Other side, Both the Dispatcher and persons in the Field Experience a problem in hearing
each other, that could be related to a Transmitt Problem.
I had a unique problem with a MSF sometime
back....The Radio was Receiving just Fine. Transmitt Power was 75 Watts, and yet persons
in the Field were having a horrible time hearing the Dispatcher, and Field HT's
Come to find out the Unit was tied into a
RX-TX Combiner, and the TX antenna had developed a intermiitent problem.
Not to say that is the same as yours, but until all the spacific details can be seen,
a proper conclusion will be tough to reach.
One thing to ask for sure ! Ask how long
the tech has been servicing MSF5000's, that
will be a good clue. Most Techs I know tend
to run from them.
Nothing like Micors.
MS
Monty, we what a combiner over there. I hadn't thought about that. About a year ago, a cell company built a 150ft+ tower, and offered to move all our stuff over there. The equipment was finally moved over there about 6 months ago. Approx 6-7 VHF channels and a couple of low volume UHF/VHF-Lo of our are all out there.
At one point, we had noticed that while one channel was tx'ing, some of the rx on the other channles would fade. I am sure that would have something to do with it. Before the move, all the antenna's were on our own tower above us, and never had a problem with that....
Hmmmm
At one point, we had noticed that while one channel was tx'ing, some of the rx on the other channles would fade. I am sure that would have something to do with it. Before the move, all the antenna's were on our own tower above us, and never had a problem with that....
Hmmmm
Sounds like the TX combiner and RX multi coupler are not working correctly. If everything was fine before the move, then you may want to go back and check out all the cables at the suck out and pass cavities.
The cable lengths between the cavities and the T in the cables are all of a critical length. If some of them got moved around or the cavities got put in the wrong position, your filtering will not work as designed.
Hope you had a diagram of how all the filters were set up and cabled before the move. Maybe in the records of the company that installed the system in the first place.
If the move caused any of the cavities to be abused in the move, they might also have to be retuned. Most of the cellular technicians don't have the first idea on how to set up a multi coupler system. Most of the cellular tower crews don't even know what a cavity does.
You might be involved in locating a company that has worked on a trunking or SMR system to give you a hand solving the problem. I have not been too impressed with the class of technician help the newer Motorola shops have today. If they can't swap it out, the problem is probably beyond their abilities.
Jim
The cable lengths between the cavities and the T in the cables are all of a critical length. If some of them got moved around or the cavities got put in the wrong position, your filtering will not work as designed.
Hope you had a diagram of how all the filters were set up and cabled before the move. Maybe in the records of the company that installed the system in the first place.
If the move caused any of the cavities to be abused in the move, they might also have to be retuned. Most of the cellular technicians don't have the first idea on how to set up a multi coupler system. Most of the cellular tower crews don't even know what a cavity does.
You might be involved in locating a company that has worked on a trunking or SMR system to give you a hand solving the problem. I have not been too impressed with the class of technician help the newer Motorola shops have today. If they can't swap it out, the problem is probably beyond their abilities.
Jim
I agree about the tech's. We use to have a really good one, but he went out on brain cancer. Unfortunatly, the local company is now more of a regional company that has bought up most of the smaller companies, and those offices are much worse than what we have to deal with now.
The independant companies left really suck. When I was looking for the legal way to add options of my Astro product, the sales and a tech guy actually tried to tell me that the "codeplug" upgrade with lab software was the best way to go (even though he didn't say it in so many words). Kinda scary.
The independant companies left really suck. When I was looking for the legal way to add options of my Astro product, the sales and a tech guy actually tried to tell me that the "codeplug" upgrade with lab software was the best way to go (even though he didn't say it in so many words). Kinda scary.
Most, if not ALL dealers and service companys do NOT have anyone with MSF5000 experiance, even most of the Motorola guys who knew the MSF are gone. The kids just do not have a clue.
If you have a combiner setup, try to move the MSF to a completly seprate antenna, even if it is a tempory test antenna on the fence out side the building, and try that for a while.
I come over and fix it for you but you are too far away from SO CAli.
If you have a combiner setup, try to move the MSF to a completly seprate antenna, even if it is a tempory test antenna on the fence out side the building, and try that for a while.
I come over and fix it for you but you are too far away from SO CAli.