Motorola 800Mhz rebanding website

[batdude]

very interesting for those who give a


doug



http://www.motorola.com/800rebanding

[Cam]

CMRS?
Consumer Mobile Radio Serivce?
Is this Nextel and the like? I thought they were ESMRS or some crap like that.

[Karl NVW]

COMMERCIAL mobile radio service, includes both the local area SMRs and the ESMRs.

[chiefhal3]

I wonder if the other companies who use the iden technology similiar if not exactly the same as Nextels, folks like Southern Linc, will also have to share in the cost with Nextel?

Of course here is the major line of thought, who at Motorola is getting the big promotion and pay increase. Think of this, who is really making out big? They sell almost complete capacity of all their old technology in the commerical and public safety markets, and problably most of the inventory, then they come out with new technology radios, sell them out until the market is full, and bam all the sudden they realize that the techology they sold one market is causing problems with another market so guess what, they are going to resell both markets. Purely the best sales and marketing plan I have ever seen.

Lets see they make the 800 trunking radios, they make the 800 trunking systems infrastucture, they make the iden phones and they make the iden infrastructure. Hmmm. If I were Nextel I'd be trying to get Motorola to pay for the rebanding since Motorola made the two conflicting systems.

But, I am no expert and I don't have all the facts, and I really don't know what I am talking about, just someone from the outside looking in thinking how in the world did they get the car inside the courthouse.

[John]

What I don't understand about the rebanding, is why new "channel numbers" have to be assigned for the 800 channels? Especially for the channels that basically are staying unchanged. I guess this way you just have to sell public safety either new radios or at least flash upgrades. More income for big M.

Not to mention making a bunch of trunking scanners obsolete.....

I just don't see why the channel numbers HAD to change.

John

[Cowthief]

Hello.

The FCC is renumbering the channels.
I do not see any impact on current trunking systems.
The radios do not actually deal with a channel number, but N=n+X
X is the base frequency.
n is the step.
N is the count from X (base).
Lets take a common VHF marine radio for the example.
X is usually 156.0 mHz.
The radio works with a 25 kHz spacing.
Lets say you want 156.3 mHz, channel 6.
X is 156.0, n is 12, ( 25 ) so the answer is 156.3
So, you see, the radio could care less what the channel number is.
The only trouble that could happen would be if the channels were made narrow or the freqency(s) were changed.

[N4DES]

This should end the confusion... The left column is the current 800 Channel Plan and the right one is the 800 Channel Plan once the re-banding is completed:

http://www.motorola.com/cgiss/800reband ... ndPlan.pdf

I'm showing the first 10 assignments below of the new NPSPAC channels that will be created in the 851-853 band that currently don't exist on the right side. As you see they don't match 1 for 1.

Current Plan---------------------------------- New Channel Plan
1 851.0125 806.0125 GC---- 1 851.0125 806.0125 NPSPAC - MA
2 851.0375 806.0375 GC---- 2 851.0375 806.0375 NPSPAC
3 851.0625 806.0625 GC---- 3 851.0500 806.0500 NPSPAC
4 851.0875 806.0875 GC---- 4 851.0625 806.0625 NPSPAC
5 851.1125 806.1125 GC---- 5 851.0750 806.0750 NPSPAC
6 851.1375 806.1375 GC---- 6 851.0875 806.0875 NPSPAC
7 851.1625 806.1625 GC---- 7 851.1000 806.1000 NPSPAC
8 851.1875 806.1875 GC---- 8 851.1125 806.1125 NPSPAC
9 851.2125 806.2125 GC---- 9 851.1250 806.1250 NPSPAC
10 851.2375 806.2375 GC---- 10 851.1375 806.1375 NPSPAC

[John]

Motorolas rebanding site is showing mandatory reprogramming with new versions of CPS/RSS or flash upgrade for most model radios after the rebanding. They also show several model radios that will have to be replaced. So there is some impact and profit to Motorola....

If it was just new frequencies and they are within the current bandspread of the radio, why do some radios need to be replaced?

John

[N9LLO]

Motorola trunking data contains the FCC channel number that the radio is to move to upon a channel grant by the trunking system controller. If the channel numbers change the radio will go to the wrong frequency. Scanners that are set to control channel only trunking will exhibit this problem also , I not sure how they will work if you have all the frequencies programmed in for a given system. It looks like EDACS has the advantage here.

Chris
N9LLO

[ab]

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/800hp.htm

http://www.800ta.org/index.htm

http://wireless.fcc.gov/publicsafety/80 ... ndex2.html

[bernie]

My two bits worth:
Cowthief has it right about how the Motorola trunking system assigns channels.

When the new controller CP(U48) is made it will have the frequencies of the new channels referenced to the original "Base" frequency. The FCC channel number is not revelant here.

The actual Motorola channel number is off set by one digit from the FCC channel list.

[carbineone]

Does anyone have any idea if the flash is going to be part of the new cps
or is it going to be a flash upgrade? Also if it is a flash is it made for each radio as in ser# or a product wide flash? what about cost for the flash
if it is a prvately owned radio?

[N9LLO]

The channel numbers/freq table for 800/900 trunking are hard coded into the radios firmware. Only Vhf/Uhf trunking uses the base frequency/spacing info the assign channels. If your radio cant be flash upgraded for whatever reason (not flash capable, no longer supported) you are screwed, your radio is a boatanchor.

Chris
N9LLO

[mtxman]

i think this is hilarious. 5600.00 xts portables, new channel numbers and major downtime for public safety. this is the end for analog. if i was public safety i would think twice about commiting to this nextel spectrum grab. its not going to fix the interference problem, and after rebanding all hell is going to break loose. this is the most corrupt attempt to rob taxpayers in the history of America. why dont we just say no radios will work sell them all new ones and move public safety to 700 mhz, give nextel the whole 800 mhz band every body else can go take a hike.

[N4DES]

its not going to fix the interference problem,

and what makes you think it's not going to fix it?

[MTS2000des]

well we already have 866 and up only systems that are getting clobbered by Nextel overload (keep in mind the Nextel channels in question were at least 4 meg down) so how is merely separating them a few more going to GUARANTEE an END to the interference BEFORE MILLIONS of dollars are spent?

I know of one SURE solution that would have worked...but it wouldn't have been the best for the interfering party and we alll know that is what it is all about here and that is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[N4DES]

Actually I have received interference on the NPSPAC channels in my system from the A cell carrier as well. They butt right up to the NPSPAC band.

[mtxman]

anyone who has an analog system and has experienced this god awful interference from nextel knows it is reciever overload on the analog radio when it gets near a nextel site. they dont even have to be on frequencies close to you to overload your radio reciever. if they are on a channel 25 khz, 50 or even 100, hell you might as well unplug your sytem and forget it. A band cellular also causes interference to analog radios. there is no solution to this problem but for everyone to go digital. this is a big spectrum grab for nextel, because they are out of spectrum almost everywhere in the country. this is going to be a disaster for everyone involved and then when these billions are spent rebanding, public safety will still have to go digital because they fell for this scam. this is a desperation move that will not fix the interference problem and cause years of problems and unforseen costs associated with the rebanding and cause grief to all those involved. if you dont understand a problem you cant fix it. if you believe what someone tells you without researching it yourself, you are doomed.

[N4DES]

According to the manufacturers (Moto & MA/Comm) it's intermodulation occuring in the first IF of the radios. I have seen this on more than one powerpoint presentations that I have seen to date from both of them.

It can be reduced with the use of filtering on the radio front end, but its not a perfect science.

[MTS2000des]

and that's the biggest issue I have with the "rebanding": it isn't guaranteed to get rid of the interference, and the monumental cost (regardless of who initially pays for it in the beginning, because we will all end up paying in some way or another) not to mention the further placing first responders lives at risk ny jockeying around live mission critical radio systems....for what? so one mammoth ESMR wanna-be cellular/PCS company can have their way? it just doesn't seem logical nor the best solution for the real victims in this debacle: or public safety users on 800MHz being jammed by Nextel and us, the taxpayer who no doubt will get shafted in the end paying for it all.

the only GUARANTEED solution is to force Nextel to vacate 800MHz, since they want to be a celphone co let them "swap" all their 800 licenses for PCS...

I still say this is yet another scam brought to you by the FCC...looking out for their lobbyists' best interest.

[N4DES]

So what your saying is that we also need to tell the "A" carrier licensees that they must vacate the spectrum as well as they are part of the problem also?

At least the FCC made the final plan and NEXTEL offered to pay for it. I agree that the 1.9 GHz spectrum is a bit much of a gift, but NEXTEL did pay a great deal of money for their current 800 Spectrum (not like the A & B Cellular carriers who paid zero) and has every right to stay in the band.

The only way an agency will loose is if they don't count every single radio that can access their system. The inventory needs to be very accurate.

[mtxman]

nextel really should move out of the 800 band. there is no other way to fix the interference. they have already put most of the analog smr operators out of business. there are motorola mss shops going out of business here and nobody is doing very well. soon public safety will be maintaining there own radios because there will be no 2 way shops left. commspace had a great idea for a system to compete with nextel with the digital system they came out with, of course no body would support them so they went belly up. i have never seen a market more manipulated by 2 companies than we have here by big M and nextel. i dont think any 800 system will be left in the country in 5 years. most stuff is not supported by big M and more is being added to that list every day. its sad to see small shops being done that way after many have been in business so long and catered to the local customers. i think a lot of this is a lack of morals and common decency in this corrupt society we live in. nobody gives a crap. nextel has just turned on about 125 more freq. here and the interference is so bad to my system that i might as well unplug it and go on welfare.

[N4DES]

nextel has just turned on about 125 more freq. here and the interference is so bad to my system that i might as well unplug it and go on welfare.

Complain to the FCC if NEXTEL is unwilling to resolve the interference. Make a big deal about it and don't stop until they fix it. Crying about it on a forum won't get you anycloser to resolving the issue you have.

[ab]

http://www.motorola.com/cgiss/800reband ... ndPlan.pdf

This might help some see the big picture.

Analog is not going to die.

Complain to the FCC if NEXTEL is unwilling to resolve the interference

If they are last at your site to come on line, they must fix their problem
in your equipment, adding filters on PAs, change freqs. or shut down.
Get the F.C.C. into the mix if you need to.

[mtxman]

First of all i am not the one whining. i have as much right to state my case and opinion as anyone else on this forum. dont get arrogant with me, i know which ones of you are pushing this rebanding and why and all about whats going on behind the scenes. as far as the fcc goes, let me tell you this, the few companies that went back to the 800mhz auction in 2000 that bidded on their channels and won them and the channels became Extended Area licenses in the 800 band in other words geographical area licenes. why is it that nextel licensed the same channels in the geograpical area and is using them for iden and the fcc does nothing. what good was the auction if you cant even use these channels in your geographical area without nextel puting them on the air and interefering with your coverage area. if you go into the data base and look the license they have iden installed on your geographical area was granted after the auction in 2000. so you want me to seek help from the fcc, ha ha ha. you get more hilarious every time you post this ridiculous argument. everyone knows it is not a level playing field and that the corruption is easy to see. you can sell this crap to someone else, but i have seen this type of injustice time and time again and its not an accident. if you get nextel to shut a channel down that is interfering with you, it will be back on the air in 2 weeks and they will make excuses again. oh, im sorry did i cause you to lose 10 customers off your system, oh too bad. thats the response you get.

[MTS2000des]

So what your saying is that we also need to tell the "A" carrier licensees that they must vacate the spectrum as well as they are part of the problem also?

At least the FCC made the final plan and NEXTEL offered to pay for it. I agree that the 1.9 GHz spectrum is a bit much of a gift, but NEXTEL did pay a great deal of money for their current 800 Spectrum (not like the A & B Cellular carriers who paid zero) and has every right to stay in the band.

The only way an agency will loose is if they don't count every single radio that can access their system. The inventory needs to be very accurate.

A band cellular interference is minimal compared to Nextel/iDEN, and usually carriers are more apt to fix issues than Nextel is. CDMA systems have proven to be much better neighboors on 800 than Nextel has. The majority of the interference IS Nextel, as stated in APCO interference studies and FCC complaints. No secret there.

My concern is nobody has written a check yet. Nextel SAYS they are going to magically pay for everyone to have this noise that they are making just disappear and people take them at face value. Remember back in 98, they denied they were interfering at all, they have changed their story so many times it takes a PDA and an Access database to keep up with it. I think Nextel, like any other business, is out to protect themselves, and any action they take will be to benefit them, which is why I think their scam plan is just that, a scam.

I think once the real cost surfaces as to what this rebanding is going to cost Nextel they are going to refuse to pay and tie it up in courts for years fighting over nickel and dime. In the meantime, the inteference continues, someone will probabbly get killed, then the FCC will be FORCED to do what is should have done years ago when this crap started and yank Nextel sites that interfere OFF THE AIR which is what they would do TO ANYONE ELSE WHO CAUSES INTERFERENCE TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

Rebanding is NOT the solution to a problem that was allowed to happen because of careless buddy buddy good ol' boy politics. Washington DC lawyer Dennis Brown summed it up best in his "Brown Paper" comment he filed in response to Nextel's first so-called "White Paper". I agree with him 100 percent. We all shouldn't have to pay the cost because of one companies' poor decisions and the FCC inactions (in their greed to make big money on spectrum auctions).

as I said before, as always, the American texpayer is the one who will end up paying for this one. Mark my word on that.

[mtxman]

i agree totally. the main cause of the interference is nextel. there is no doubt about that. the rules that that apply to everyone else dont apply to them. this crap about, if you have interference we will respond in 24 hours is just what i said crap. i have a private system with fire departments on it and nextel is interfering with my system and i have got nothing but excuses form them. the fact of the matter is they know they can get away with these illegal activities. they have channels licensed in the land transportation band which are supposed to be nonprofit and nobody says a word. i dont think any 2 way shops will survive in the long run. public safety will ultimately be servicing there own systems if something doesnt change. i would not sink millions of dollars in to analog and then a few years down the road, have to go digital. it just doesnt make sense for public safety to do that. you can buy a digital radio for 29.95 and an xts5000 costs 5600.00. how many volunteer firemen are going to mortgage their house to buy an xts? how can they possibly afford to equip everyone with one of these expensive radios. is it worth people dying over? so one company can have its way? it took the tragedy of sept. 11, 2001 for them to accept we even had a problem. we all know that. we can do better than this. they should have been held accountable from day one, when we first discovered the intereference was a serious problem. many small shops were driven out of business because of the interference to their systems. this is not right, and should have not been allowed to happen. i know because i was working for one in the nineties that was driven out before we could do a thing about the intereference problem.

[OX]

Just wait a couple years. Sprint bought Nextel. Anyone want to guess that they'll be dumping the current Nextel product line and migrating the current users over to the a similar technology on Sprint's frequencies? Sprint doesn't know what they want to do with Nextel. At least they have one fewer competitor, right?

[N4DES]

i agree totally. the main cause of the interference is nextel. there is no doubt about that. the rules that that apply to everyone else dont apply to them. this crap about, if you have interference we will respond in 24 hours is just what i said crap. i have a private system with fire departments on it and nextel is interfering with my system and i have got nothing but excuses form them. the fact of the matter is they know they can get away with these illegal activities.

So I ask again...have you called the FCC on this? By what you have posted on the last 2 comments I can deduct that you haven't. If this is the case you have no one to blame except yourself.

If you don't get satisfaction from the FCC then call your Congressman. They will light a fire under the FCC. I have personal experience with this (no not with a NEXTEL issue) and believe me the FCC will stand up and take notice.

As for the costs to Public Safety, if an agency is prudent, takes into account all of the subscribers as to whether they will be replaced or re-programmed, staff time, and any misc. issues, they will be paid "up front" all of the costs. I have to re-state that they must be anal on this and count every radio! Other allowed costs are consulting services if an agency doesn't think it has the internal staff knowledge to coordinate the process fully.

This is a done deal and is going to happen, you may not be happy about it, but all of the engineers that worked on a solution can't all be wrong.

[N4DES]

Just wait a couple years. Sprint bought Nextel. Anyone want to guess that they'll be dumping the current Nextel product line and migrating the current users over to the a similar technology on Sprint's frequencies? Sprint doesn't know what they want to do with Nextel. At least they have one fewer competitor, right?

It was a merger, Sprint did not buy NEXTEL. They have equal representation at the board level.

[bellersley]

I've not heard of any issues up here in the north from the Telus Mobilty "Mike" network, which is the same iDEN as your Nextel. I live within a 30 minute drive from 6 large 800MHz systems, both EDACS and Motorola, and I've never heard of any complaints about interference from any iDEN system.

Why does it seem to be such an issue in the United States but not up here, or am I just not looking in the right places?

[mtxman]

be thankful your in canada and that things are not like they are here. the interference is so bad even in small cities that the analog recievers overload all over the place here. if you manage to get them to change one of their adjacent channels they will crank it back up a month or two later. you cant sue them, all you can do is slowly close down your shop and go home. i never thought we would see the day that such blatant corruption would be tolerated. you have no options as far as going digital here to replace your system. Tetra isnt allowed, and commspace is no longer around. no small company can afford a harmony iden switch, kenwood and all the other radio companies will not try anything new. hell i have 800 channels and i cant do anything with them. nextel doesnt cover the rural areas, i could put in a nice little digital system and compete very well, if there was one around. the consumer gets screwed no matter how you look at it. i wish something like tetra would come here and give them a run for there money.

[batdude]

in the grand scheme of things I understand everyone's points on this topic.

however, lets look at the big picture here.

you have a 5 or 10 channel trunk.

you have maybe a couple hundred units in the field (i'll even go 500+)


you must consider the greater good here, regardless of how pissed off you get at nextel.

yes, their technology sucks.

yes, it causes interference.

in the case of public safety system interference, i am a firm believer in "PULL THE PLUG ON THE IDEN CRAP".

however, unless you are a public safety system owner (and i am guessing you aren't), SELL YOUR DAMN CHANNELS AND RETIRE....or migrate them to UHF LTR.

analog is going away, i don't care how many tissues you need... stop crying about it and move on.

digital technology is the future, and it's expensive.

i don't see any mom/pop 2way shops buying astro/provoice infrastructure anytime soon.

the greater good (sorry, gonna piss you off again) is the 15 or so million nexel customers.

those nextel taxpayers trump your trunked users since they are a much larger population than your trunked users...regardless of "who was where first"...just ask city counselman "X" which he cares about more... a few thousand voters, or your analog trunk....sorry, you lose.


my .02, like it or not.



doug

[metro121]

I think I am going to buy some Motorola stock.

[xmo]

If you have a Motorola 800 system and are affected by the rebanding - contact your accounty rep. Motorola is setting up a team to assist customers. They are going around making a presentation that explains the process, what the effect is on various Motorola systems and products, and how they are going to deal with it.

The presentation will really help you understand how to plan for this MANDATORY event.

M will no doubt make a lot of money on the process - they even have some special new radio models just for this situation, e.g. XTL1500RB, XTL2500RB, XTS1500RB, and XTS2500RB.

These radios have special feature sets to serve as replacements for radios that cannot be flashed to the new bandplan. They will be cheaper than the corresponding non-RB models and can be flashed up to the standard configuration later if needed.

[N4DES]

Rebanding has officially begun...

http://www.800ta.org/PDFs/FCC-ReconfigBegins.pdf

[mtxman]

if you say anything about your interference problems on this site you get accused of crying the nextel cronies who watch all the collateral damage from every angle in the country, everytime someone even speaks the truth about their garbage. then some idiot says i should contact my congressman, or call the fcc or maybe the president. hopefully you will get whats coming to you one day. dont you think i have done all these things stupid a--. no, i have just twittled my thumbs and hope it would go away. all along this has been damage control at its best. the rebanding is not going to fix the interference, every tech knows it. this is a big spectrum grab so that sprint can buy nextel and bail them out of there troubles. without the continuous spectrum sprint would not buy or merge with them, everybody knows that. this is worth billions of dollars, so who wouldnt spend a few million dollars rebanding. i am glad the rebanding has started, so now we will see that it is not going to fix the problem and all along it was a desperate attempt to sell this rebanding so they can get bailed out by sprint.