Astro Saber Self-Test loop (with solution)

[bellersley]

I figured I'd post this as it drove me nuts trying to figure it out, so if it helps someone else out, great!

I had finished programming up an Astro Saber and upon completion, the radio went into a self-test loop, meaning it would show "SELF TEST" and reboot and keep doing that.

Turns out, the problem with the programming was that somehow - I don't know how - a SmartZone system had Site Alias enabled (the one that lets you set aliases for site numbers, as in an AMSS system). This aparantly the radio didn't appreciate. Because the last used channel was a talkgroup on this system, that's what it would try to reboot onto.

Anyway. I took a known good codeplug and tried to re-write the radio, but alas, it wouldn't break it's self-test loop! I noticed that I could still read - partially. It would make it to block 4 or 5 then come up with a "request not ack'ed" error. Great, I figure, I now own a nice brick.

Well, when the radio goes into a READ state, before it goes into 1 CSQ mode, it boots up without doing a self test and you can see your menu buttons for half a second. I went to do a READ, and as soon as I saw the menu keys pop up, I turned off the RIB. This kept the radio in an on state, and it didn't seem to care about the problem. I turned it to a conventional channel, and programmed with a known good codeplug, and it took it, therefore solving the problem! For whatever reason, this doesn't work when going into a WRITE state. Even if it did, that would be a bad idea - the last thing you want to do is have the codeplug corrupt.

So, if you have an Astro Saber (and I'd imagine any astro radio) that doesn't want to go out of a self-test loop - this just might work for you.

This was all done with RSS v9.05. No LAB or anything required.

[usmcguttentag]

.That's some great info for the rest of us. I know there are guys on here who have gotten a "brick" or two. ANy help really helps, I now I have been searching for some solutions to stuff. Thanks for that. -Scott

[Pj]

Behavior like that is due to a HOST/DSP mismatch and/or incompatable set of features. Most likely a Nick or Nick Jr flashcode. I have yet to see a SRN or any other shop note that shows this is the result of software/hardware flaw.

Turning on site alias would do that unless there is the above condition or an attempted radio inhibit command sent to it with the aforementioned flashcodes.

[bellersley]

Well, I was speaking to a Motorola tech. at a recent hamfest and told him what happened. He explained to me that Site Aliasing on SmartZone was never fully implemented although it was something planned (which is why the option is there to do it). He said that by turning it off, the problem should go away - as it did. So, I doubt it's a host/DSP issue, or an inhibit issue.

When a radio gets inhibited, I thought it just didn't RX or TX anything, but it would still boot up alright, but I've never seen this personally.

[Pj]

Ummmmm ok. Is he talking about the system that you are on or in general?

I personally know of a few large SmartZone systems that operates with Site ID Aliasing without problems.

If you have a radio with 4F1E or 1CE something in it, in the flashcode, radio inhibit does not work properly and makes the radio do funky things.

[MikeOxlong]

He explained to me that Site Aliasing on SmartZone was never fully implemented although it was something planned (which is why the option is there to do it). He said that by turning it off, the problem should go away - as it did. So, I doubt it's a host/DSP issue, or an inhibit issue.

When a radio gets inhibited, I thought it just didn't RX or TX anything, but it would still boot up alright, but I've never seen this personally.

It's a host/dsp issue.

Site aliasing has been alive and well on Smartzone systems for years.

[bellersley]

Well, I can tell you it's not an inhibit issue as my Radio ID hasn't been sent an inhibit command nor will it.

The tech I was speaking to is in the Engineering section for a large telecom company in Canada that has a province-wide VHF smartzone system. He told me that when they tried to enable site aliasing on their mobiles (and some portables), the radios wouldn't operate properly. When they installed Phase 2 of the system they set it up as a SmartZone Omnilink system so they could have the site transmit an alias.

That's what he told me at least. I've never bothered to check otherwise. There's no other SmartZone system that I can hear in my area to verify (I'm within earshot of 4 of them).

[Pj]

Well, I can tell you it's not an inhibit issue as my Radio ID hasn't been sent an inhibit command nor will it.

Not to start a flame war, or anything else, but as many has said before me, good luck with that mindset.

I think we are all curious. Please post your HOST/DSP and Flashcode, and maybe we can come up with a solution.

As a recap of earlier discussions comments here should be considered. Some of the posters are SmartZone system adminstrators, and others are system engineers on SZ systems (ie MSS people who work on them all day long).

With all the recent discussing and paranoia about trunk system information and system keys aside I am wondering how can a system administrator inhibit or "zap" your radio if it has never keyed into the system.

I have heard of personally or read about on the board more than a few cases where some one was using a radio to monitor a system, had everything programmed so as to never affiliate or even had the mic disconnected, and yet they still have their radio zapped.

How does this happen?

Can a system administrator inhibit all invalid id's even if the radio has never been in the system?

One instance the individual changed the id frequently on top of having all of the "affiliate on ptt" setting just in case and had never keyed up on the system and still had their radio inhibited.

Obviously, no one has the right to be accessing a system they do not have permission to and IP and whatnot is an entirely separate discussion. I am curious as to how the system detects and inhibits a radio if it does not know the radio exists on the system.

Wavetar says:

Absolutely. They can set it to to inhibit any ID they wish using utilities such as SIP or SystemWatch, regardless of whether the Central Site Controller has it in it's database. It's not general practice to do so, but with the rise in TRS 'hacking', it's becoming more common.

xmo adds:

As Todd says, the System Administrator can send a kill command to any radio, affiliated or not, and even if it does not acknowledge a ping [as in you have physically disabled the transmitter]

Additionally, without going into detail, Motorola has available utility software for Smartzone systems that 'looks for' duplicate ID's and other unauthorized users.

Just because you have your unit set to affiliate only on PTT and have no mic, does not mean it won't be found. It's interesting to observe a SystemWatch on a Smartzone system. You will see a lot of traffic of the type" "Fixed end request unit to affiliate". In other words, your unit could affiliate on command from the Zone Controller and once so identified - become a target for the System Administrator to kill it.

The best advice as always is- either be authorized on the system or buy a scanner.

Another question:

I was under the impression that the system had to be aware of your radio in order for it to be inhibited.

So what you are saying is that the system can send a kill command to a specific ID and if this happens to be the id you are using your radio will be inhibited regardless of whether or not it had ever affiliated with the system?

Answer:

Exactly. The fact a big deal is made out of keeping your radio from transmitting an ID is that it just allows them to 'bulls-eye' your unit immediately, as opposed to taking shots in the dark.

An interesting query of:

OK OK... let me throw THIS in there.... if you have a radio that is MONITORING.. and the SYSTEM requests the radio that YOU HAVE (ID 1234567) to affiliate.......and then KILLS your radio.. I would THINK that you'd have a nice case against the agency that did it.. because YOU did not transmit.. the agency in question REQUESTED that you (the radio) transmit.. and the radio replied to that request.. it would seem to me that they would be in effect "authorizing" you to transmit..being that they themselves requested the affiliation,and the radio did not affiliate by itselft.. and it was a "random" request..this of course assuming the radio is NOT auto affiliating.. and the controller sends a request that ALL units need to affiliate.... kinda like the 5th amendment... it would be similar to a police officer DEMANDING to know why you're walking down the street,then take your car keys.. because you MIGHT get drunk later.. just my .02 cents...

Yelds this:

Totally wrong. You'd be laughed out of any court in America.

If you have an illegal radio on a private system, it's illegal. Whether or not YOU manually caused the radio to transmit or affiliate makes no difference. How did you program your radio? Did you use an unauthorized copy of the system key (illegal) or did you use lab software (illegal)?

Also, if you're walking down a PUBLIC street, then true you can't be harrassed for no reason. But if you're walking down Motorola's street, which is PRIVATE, they can haul your ass off to jail, strip you of all your radio and computer posessions, and rape your wallet forever.

and this:

Not to mention the radio can be inhibited without ever affiliating with the system. The admins wouldn't know you got hit, but the radio will still be dead.

A System Adminstrator writes:

That is correct and I have had almost a dozen unauthorized affiliations over the past 2 weeks and now those radios are bricks.

I have been quiet on this topic, but Doug's comment made me want to state that illegal programming is happening and I have the ability to go back over 4 months looking for illegal activity. I won't say how I do it, but to date I have turned over 50 radios to bricks. Now I'm sure those who have archives of their codeplugs have turned them back on hopefull to remove my system as I will do it to them again if they continue this illegal activity....

As a number of members of this board have stated in the past....GO BUY A SCANNER!!!

In response to:

mainly b/c too many idiots out there can't program the radio correctly and could potentially interfere with the operation of the system....in which case you should be shot on sight)

There are some more, but company just arrived..

To be continued

[bellersley]

Well, if you have your RID set to something that they would never inhibit (ie, another valid radio on the system), why would they ever try and inhibit it? For example, if a valid radio ID of a station radio is 1234, and you use that as your RID, why in the world would they ever try and inhibit that RID? That's why I'm sure an inhibit command wouldn't be sent. There's FFFE number of possible ID's - how could the system possibly nuke all of the invalid ones? That's assuming the RID I'm using even IS an invalid one. If I use the RID of some spare radio that's just sitting in a desk drawer, the system admin wouldn't even know to try and zap that ID for fear it might nuke a real radio that someone needs.

I'm not saying a radio is immune to being inhibited just because it's impossible for it to TX back to the system (as it is in the case of a VHF system if you program all the TX values incorrect), I realize to have a radio inhibited, you only need to RX the command, but my point is if your radio uses an ID that would never have a reason to get inhibited, why would they? I could understand if you were using a BS RID that doesn't exsist on the system like EEEE or something than yes, you could get zapped.

As for my host/DSP and all that:
Host: R07.11.11
DSP: N08.02.06
Flash: 599108-1C5E00-1

[bellersley]

I should also add;

I've run monitoring software on a few of the systems around here - one of which is an 800MHz SmartZone Public Saftey and the other one is a VHF SmartZone PS system. I've never ever seen an inhibit command be sent over the radio.

On the VHF system in question, I've been told that any RID will work with any TG... very mismanaged...so I'd be suprised if they even know about inhibiting. Obviously I've never verified this for myself, but the person that told me is one of the contract technicians who work on it, so he'd be in a position to know.

[MikeOxlong]

The tech I was speaking to is in the Engineering section for a large telecom company in Canada that has a province-wide VHF smartzone system. He told me that when they tried to enable site aliasing on their mobiles (and some portables), the radios wouldn't operate properly. When they installed Phase 2 of the system they set it up as a SmartZone Omnilink system so they could have the site transmit an alias.

That's what he told me at least. I've never bothered to check otherwise. There's no other SmartZone system that I can hear in my area to verify (I'm within earshot of 4 of them).

First of all, to clue other people in, you're talking about the Bell Mobility Radio Fleetnet system.

Zone 2 is not setup as Omnilink.

Radios with proper host/dsp revisions and flashcodes work fine with site aliasing turned on. Doesn't matter if they are in Zone 1 or Zone 2. They work period. I've got a friend who's worked for BMR for years (still works there on this project) and his company radio performs fine on the system with site aliasing enabled.

Zone 1 does not transmit site aliases. All you will see on your radio is Site XX (replace XX with the site number) unless you have turned aliasing on and entered in text for Site XX. Zone 2 is different. Each site transmits a site alias and this text will appear.

You should really talk to the techs that work with the system everyday. They will tell you that you've got a radio problem.

[bellersley]

Hmm. Mike, you mentioned something that brought up another question now that I think about it.

Sometimes - happens rarely - when I hit the site button, it says "Site XX" instead of "Site 5" or whatever. A friend of mine suggested maybe it's picking up a control channel but it's got a different System ID, so it ignores it. Where I live, I can hear a few Zone 1 as well as 1 Zone 2 control channels - is it possible it's picking up something on Zone 2, and ignoring it because it's got the wrong System ID?

I'm not going to say it's NOT a radio problem, but I don't see what the issue would be. My radio isn't a Nick radio, just a "Nick" flashcode. Are you suggesting that if I had a legit Flashcode without the extra stuff in it, it'd work? Might be something to look at.

I also wonder why Zone 1 wasn't setup with site aliases then, if Zone 2 was. It was my understanding that you need to program Zone 2 as a SmartZone Omnilink system in order to see the Site Aliases. I've bothered to try otherwise as it's very rare I'm ever in Zone 2.

When I say site alias, I don't mean the one that you enter with RSS, rather the kind that the site transmits as it does in Zone 2. It just seems odd that they wouldn't be consistant.

[Pj]

Ok. Dude, let me be very clear about this.

It is extrememly apparent that you do not understand the concept and background of Motorola Trunking systems.

Just by your questions and responses, just stop.

The radio you have is inhertantly flawed by flashcode. Not sure what that HOST/DSP supports. Do a search via http://batboard.batlabs.com/search.php with the keywords "Nick Deluca" "Nick Radio" "Whore flashcode". You essentially have a Nick radio.

2nd. Valid radio ID's are inhibited rotinely when they go out of service, or for any other administrative thing. So, in the chance that you programmed your radio with the RID that is getting zapped or the RID's are being reassigned, yours is toast too.

Furthermore, if your radio did transmit an ISW with a duplicate RID, both your radio and the LEGIT radio will get zapped. That would really suck of a public safety worker's radio got zapped.

At any point you set your radio to Smartzone or SZOL, it will Tx without any visable indication unlike the mobile series. Even though OBT radio's can be set by ranges, there is freqency information contained in the CC data stream that will tell it where to go, in which YOU have no control over despite what you set as ranges in CPS/RSS. The CC is the key. I reverified this with a MSS friend who works on a Military UHF TRS.

Most, if not all of the scanner software out there that people use does not decode all of the CC information. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean its not happening.

Also, you cannot set any of the ASTRO series radio's to a system RID. The software will not allow this setting, so forget that angle too. If the ID isn't in the database (and even if it is) its subject to getting zapped.

As for your comment that even if its set to a valid ID, if the system is setup to poll the radios, yours would hear it but be unable to reply, and thus it zapps itself. The exception (most likely, have to verify) is if the other radio happens to be turned on. I remember hearing that if the radio is polled and doesn't reply, it commits radio sucide until it can talk to the system (again, have to double check on that).

I hate to sound terse, but lets face it, you don't know what your doing, and your doing it with a defective piece of equipment.

[bellersley]

Actually, let's face it. I may not know what I'm doing, but several radio tech's who work with this stuff every day have verified what I'm saying. A tech who works on (probably) the largest smartzone system in the Province (maybe country?) said what I'm thinking is correct.

Bottom line is that if my radio has been inhibited, I WON'T HEAR ANYTHING. When I sit on a talkgroup, I can hear things no problem. The self-test loop is a software/hardware glitch. It's 100% unrelated to the host/DSP I'm using and the Flashcode. I know someone who has a new (read: from the factory) XTS3000 with a valid flash and a valid host/dsp. He recreated what I did, and sure enough, his radio went tits up as well.

For someone else on here who can verify it. Take your radio. Program a system for AMSS. Turn on Site Alias (not the one under the Site ID, but the one that lets you enter an alias for 8 sites). Enter text for the aliases. Now go back into the Trunking System menu and change the system to SmartZone. Don't touch anything else except that. Now dump it into the radio, you will recreate the problem exactly as I describe it. Going back into the RSS and deleting that system, creating a NEW smartzone system then re-entering your System ID and control channels, etc... will remove the problem.

Sorry, but if you're going to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, maybe you shouldn't assume things just because what you've heard/experienced doesn't jive with what I'm posting. You can check with your system admin on another system all you want, but I've run my radio for 7 days non stop along side a spectrum analyzer with RS232 output. Guess what came from my radio in those 7 days? Nothing unexpected. This is with the radio set to SmartZone. The only thing that came from the radio was the occasional "ping" to try and affiliate. This happened on exactly the frequency I programmed it to.

I'm not saying I won't listen to advice posted on here, but I'm just saying - unless you PERSONALLY have experienced your radio being inhibited or transmitting when setup the way I'm describing, your opinions are just that. Opinions.

I have a meeting next week with a rep. from Motorola Canada who used to work at an MSS for 25 years. I'll see what he has to say about this. But even then, what he tells me I'll take with a grain of salt. From everything I've read and heard and seen with my own eyes, there's NO WAY for the radio to be inhibited the way I have it set up.

Example: 1234 is a legit radio ID. There's a squad car out there with that RID. If I clone my RID to be that one, there's no way in hell they are going to send an inhibit command for a LEGIT radio ID that gets used every day on the system, are they?

[bellersley]

I hate to sound terse, but lets face it, you don't know what your doing, and your doing it with a defective piece of equipment.

Forgot to add. Defective? Well, if you consider a radio that cost the original buyer close to $4k and doesn't have anything to do with Nick defective, so be it. Yes, it has a "Nick" flashcode in it, but there is NOTHING wrong with that flashcode. Sure, some of the capabilities might be incompatible with eachother (Like software encryption), but that doesn't mean the radio is defective, does it? According to what others have said on here, the Host/DSP is a valid combination. Why would the factory put in a Host/DSP that ISN'T valid?

Sorry to get on the defensive, but unless you've seen my radio, how can you tell it's defective? I've had it tuned up 100% to factory specs at an authorized Motorola shop, so it can't be the tuning values.

[Pj]

Forgot to add. Defective? Well, if you consider a radio that cost the original buyer close to $4k and doesn't have anything to do with Nick defective, so be it.

Doesn't matter. I bet that $4k wasn't bought new with that flashcode. If it was, it wasn't from a Motorola dealer.

Yes, it has a "Nick" flashcode in it, but there is NOTHING wrong with that flashcode.

There is a lot wrong with that flashcode.

Sure, some of the capabilities might be incompatible with eachother (Like software encryption), but that doesn't mean the radio is defective, does it?

Yes it does.

According to what others have said on here, the Host/DSP is a valid combination. Why would the factory put in a Host/DSP that ISN'T valid?

Its not the firmware, its the flashcode. The flashcode defines what the radio can and cannot do properly. That flashcode is about as corrupted as an unpatched Internet Explorer running on Windows 95. If the software isn't what its suppose to be, it won't work right.

Sorry to get on the defensive, but unless you've seen my radio, how can you tell it's defective? I've had it tuned up 100% to factory specs at an authorized Motorola shop, so it can't be the tuning values.

Great. Good for you. The RF sections are what they are suppose to be, but has absoultely no bearing on how the feature set in the radio operates.

[wavetar]

Example: 1234 is a legit radio ID. There's a squad car out there with that RID. If I clone my RID to be that one, there's no way in hell they are going to send an inhibit command for a LEGIT radio ID that gets used every day on the system, are they?

If you're talking about a SmartZone system, then it certainly COULD get inhibited. Here's the scenario:

If legit radio "A" is affiliated on one site, and unauthorized radio "B" happens to affiliate on a different site, radio "A" will get dropped from the system until such time as the radio user forces re-affiliation by turning the radio on/off, or changing talkgroups, or trying to transmit. While dropped, radio "A" does not receive any talkgroup traffic. This is a very real concern for a public safety user. They would very likely take the steps to reprogram radio "A" with a different ID, then inhibit the old one...resulting in radio "B" turning into a brick.

So, as long as you're ensuring your unauthorized radio is in no way affiliating with the system, you should be ok.

Todd

[bellersley]

Doesn't matter. I bet that $4k wasn't bought new with that flashcode. If it was, it wasn't from a Motorola dealer.

Correct sir. It came with only P25 operation, Conventional Only. No fancy features. The "Nick" flashcode was added later. If I could find a "legit" flash that did P25, SmartZone (or at the very least, Smartnet) and MDC (not that necessary, but I'd like it), I'd have no problem using that.

So, as long as you're ensuring your unauthorized radio is in no way affiliating with the system, you should be ok.

Well, I've done everything I can think of, short of removing the PA which I WON'T do, to stop it from affiliating. In over a week of being on continuously, it hasn't transmitted once where it isn't supposed to, only on the TX frequencies I've given it (which aren't valid for the system).

[bellersley]

Its not the firmware, its the flashcode.

Better question for you Pj (or anyone who can answer). I would like to get a "real" working flashcode and not some "super-whore" code in this thing. Any idea how I can go about doing that? I'd prefer to go the "legit" route but if someone has a working VHF Smartnet flashcode with P25, I'm sure we could work something out.

Merci