anyone familiar with the setup of SAM to control repeater operation?
i would like to chat with you on aim or yahoo....
PM me, pls
doug
SAM + Quantro station.... questions....
Moderator: Queue Moderator
SAM + Quantro station.... questions....
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Doug,
I hate to laugh about your situation, BUT... Search my posts.
I have asked this question some time ago, I got varying responses. The motorola literature on the module is crap. It appears that they built this unit with only a few people in mind that know how to program the SAM. Not even a cal to motorola station specialists could answer my basic questions.
PLEASE, if you come up with something concrete, or some literature on programming commands please share. Good Luck, Rob
P.S. You may want to try to search for SAM literature reference the MSF. The MSF literautre is way better than the quant stuff. It programs the same way, with almost the same ware.
I hate to laugh about your situation, BUT... Search my posts.
I have asked this question some time ago, I got varying responses. The motorola literature on the module is crap. It appears that they built this unit with only a few people in mind that know how to program the SAM. Not even a cal to motorola station specialists could answer my basic questions.
PLEASE, if you come up with something concrete, or some literature on programming commands please share. Good Luck, Rob
P.S. You may want to try to search for SAM literature reference the MSF. The MSF literautre is way better than the quant stuff. It programs the same way, with almost the same ware.
Also, Here is the most informative post by far
Ok,
So where is the reapeater knock down function??????
I looked thru the software and came up (-).. I would love to do set-up/ kd over the air.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMROB: "So where is the reapeater knock down function?????? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tone remote command table has functions available for repeater set-up and knock-down. This allows a console operator to control the repeaterover the wireline. Sometimes tone remote decoders in base stations are falsed by voice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMROB: "...I would love to do set-up/ kd over the air"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MSF5000 and Quantar / Quantro stations when equipped with a SAM [Station Access Module] can do over the air repeater set-up and knock-down.
Repeater set-up / knock-down can be configured where one authorized user activates the system for open access for a specified time, until a time out, or until knocked down - OR - you can program the station to require a RAC MDC access on every transmission from every user.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XMO,
I know that the MSF/Quants have the capabiltiy of this. We run both quantros and MSF's here for our stuff.
Our quantros have SAM modules in them, But I still have yet to find any information about how to accurately set up set-up and knock down.
More importantly, the funtion to which we have purchased the SAM modules, We can not add more than (If i remember correctly) 16 individual MDC ID to the table(s). So for us it is useless, as far as this is concerned.
We have called motorola, and they have (-0) information reference the SAM module. Hell, I even spoke with one of the engineers in station products who worked on the quantar, and he had no clue on how to do this.
So while I digress, Like the SAM or the RICK, I thought they meant that the MTR had Over the Air capability to do SU/KN.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conventional over the air repeater access, whether by single tone, DTMF, MDC, or other signal format was developed to allow users to access a particular repeater in situations where multiple repeaters share the same RF frequencies in the same or overlapping coverage geography. That way the repeater is deactivated until needed. For example, the 800 MHz NPSPAC mutual aid channel repeaters must be deactivated until needed. Usually the activation is done over the wireline from a dispatch console, but over the air access could also be used.
RAC is not intended to be a subscriber validation system such as the user ID in a trunking system, whereby only users who are configured in the database can access the system and the system administrator can disable lost or stolen units or subscribers who don't pay their bill.
You could use MDC ID and RAC together so that you can disable radios by MDC and have the users be able to activate the repeater as needed. If that is what you want to do - you should use the RAC feature to activate the repeater, not the unit ID. That way all the users of a particular repeater have their radios programmed with unique MDC ID's but a common RAC code.
The RAC code can then be sent automatically at the beginning of every transmission or by pressing an appropriately programmed option button.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes,
I would agree with you on this. The manual states exactly what you did, as far as access to same freq. sites with RAC.
We have had the RAC set up, but not all radios do it, etc. So it has been disabled.
We have currently ordered a cimmaraon decoder, with I beleive over 3,000+ id's (MDC) that can be listed and discriminated, that is what we need and want.
Not to mention the fact that the unit can be hooked up via modem and programmed remotely to add/delete id's.
I will be detailing it's connection in conjunction with a doug hall voter to both the MSF's and quantar/ro.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
RKG
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 2110
Location: Boston
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you already have a Cimarron CPlus working, and if your radios are all capable of MDC PTT-ID, take a look at what Cimarron calls "Authorize Mode" in the CPlus installation manual. It is fairly easy to implement and works quite well.
Back to top
Dan562
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 445
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Guys,
Is there somethimg I'm missing on the original Post about this MTR2000 station problem?
Somehow you gentlemen XMO, FMROB & RKG got wrapped up in the MSF5000 and Quantar, RAC SAM and MDC signaling discussion which has nothing to do with this individual's MTR2000 problem.
I will point out to you guys that the Quantar SU / KD should interface with the Quantars Wildcard. For Rob, perhaps you spoke to a /\/\ Quantar Product Group Engineer that might have been a RF Hardware individual and does not get involved with the Ancillary TRC, SAM or Wildcard hardware or software functions.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
Calling motorola is like stepping out into a freeway during rush hour blindfolded.
I called, spoke with many different people, and even started a case. It took alost two weeks to hear back from them after speaking to numerous individuals, and the final result was....
We don't know how to solve your problem.
Why is it that you can create multiple tables within the sam, but the only the first table actually functions (table of individual MDC ID's)
If you can answer this, you would be the man..
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan is correct about the previous thread [http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=64940] having morphed pretty far off topic - so I moved these posts to a new thread.
FMROB has a point - there are few at Motorola that are familiar with SAM. For sure, there is at least one guy - I have spoken to him. I had created a case asking for assistance with SAM programming and it finally reached him [after I had talked to a couple other guys who were very courteous but didn't have an answer]
What he told me was basically "What you want to do is possible, but I can't tell you how to do it" After thinking about the response, I realized what he was saying is that some issues you simply have to master on your own - Motorola just does not have the resources to hold your hand on every detail.
He gave me enough pointers to get me started in the right direction and I was successful is setting up the feature I needed.
Next point. The Quantar's repeater setup and knockdown don't need to interface to the station wildcard programming unless you also want to control the feature from the wireline. For over-the-air applications, SAM programming alone is sufficient.
Lastly, the multiple tables that FMROB refers to are associated with SAM "modes". These modes are not directly associated with station modes but can be by creative programming. This would involve the use of the station's wildcard programming. A station wildcard action table would be created to respond to the selection of a station mode by setting the appropriate output(s).
There are SAM wildcard inputs and outputs that are interfaced [in the station] to station wildcard inputs and outputs. That way station wildcard programming can detect inputs from the SAM or send bits to it. SAM wildcard programming can then respond to those bits to execute a SAM action table. That table can then change the SAM mode with the SELSAMMODE command.
Another possibility would be to drive the process with MCS. That would allow you to transmit to the station with a particular PL which MCS would detect as USER XX. Then the station wildcard programming could respond to MCS USER XX by executing an action table that sets bits for the SAM. The corresponding SAM wildcard input bits would be detected by the SAM, causing it to execute a SAM action table which would cause selection of a new SAM mode and thereby give you access to a different decoder table.
Taken together, the station wildcard programming and the SAM programming combine to provide a very powerful set of tools to customize station operation but mastering these capabilities takes a bit of effort.
Back to top
Dan562
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 445
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks XMO,
And there's one other alternative to FMROB's questions about the MSF5000 and Quantar SAM Programming layers. This would be to go to the source who wrote the original software code:
http://douglastechnologies.com/
With /\/\'s Corporate Managements zealous approach of downsizing all of the previous employees, some looked into the future and viewed the situation as an opportunity to change their career paths. Doug just happened to be one of these individuals but he did set-up a company on the side hoping he could grow the business. I would image that anyone contacting Doug should keep their MasterCard or VISA handy since he'll be consulting on the SAM Decoder or other /\/\ products. Doug is a very knowledgeable Engineer.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appologize for helping that thread in the wrong direction.
Hopefully it was all useful information to someone, somewhere.
The folks at Moto weren't mean at all, and were very nice. It is just that they sometimes don't offer much help. I wish I got some pointers on the sam.
XMO, Dan562 As always, I appreciate the help. I got some pointers fro the threads.
It seems have to really sink my teeth into the programming manual.
Thanks guys., Rob
Back to top
Vercomm
1 Warning for RSS Wanted/For Sale
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 245
Location: "Where the Grass is Green and the Girls are Pretty"
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys,
I'm quite interested in learning to program the wildcard tables. I have the following manuals, but have found little info on programming wildcard info.
Radio Service Software User's Guide (68-81096E10-O)
Instruction Manual (68P81095E05-O)
Am i missing it in the manuals somewhere or is it something you just have to sit down with and master by yourself?
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to look for a newer version of the Quantar instruction manual - 68P81095E05-O is the first release. Newer versions will have more interfacing examples in the SYSTEM APPLICATIONS section.
Also, the Quantar RSS manual you should have is 6881085E35. Version suffix -AE of that manual came with RSS version 13. You will want to keep that handy even if you decide to upgrade to using the later Windows based versions.
Unfortunately, the wildcard section in the RSS manual is not a comprehensive tutorial on the feature. The most important information you need isn't printed in the manual. You need to know which station states can be used in wildcard state tables and what actions can be put in the action tables.
That information is in the RSS wildcard help file. It is worth taking the effort to copy that file from the RSS disk and edit down to just the wildcard info without the links the RSS uses to access the file. Then print that out and put it in a binder.
Now you are ready to sit down with a station, a computer, all the books, and your help binder. Do it in the shop, and start experimenting until you get good at it before trying it in the field.
Back to top
RKG
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 2110
Location: Boston
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, once again, anyone who is interested in doing RAC, either with or without UserID masking, should take a hard look at the Cimarron C-Plus line of decoders. They are not exactly cheap, but this feature is extremely easy to implement and works quite well, and the Cimarron manual (which is available on the Cimarron site for downloading) is quite useful.
Ok,
So where is the reapeater knock down function??????
I looked thru the software and came up (-).. I would love to do set-up/ kd over the air.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMROB: "So where is the reapeater knock down function?????? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The tone remote command table has functions available for repeater set-up and knock-down. This allows a console operator to control the repeaterover the wireline. Sometimes tone remote decoders in base stations are falsed by voice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMROB: "...I would love to do set-up/ kd over the air"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MSF5000 and Quantar / Quantro stations when equipped with a SAM [Station Access Module] can do over the air repeater set-up and knock-down.
Repeater set-up / knock-down can be configured where one authorized user activates the system for open access for a specified time, until a time out, or until knocked down - OR - you can program the station to require a RAC MDC access on every transmission from every user.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XMO,
I know that the MSF/Quants have the capabiltiy of this. We run both quantros and MSF's here for our stuff.
Our quantros have SAM modules in them, But I still have yet to find any information about how to accurately set up set-up and knock down.
More importantly, the funtion to which we have purchased the SAM modules, We can not add more than (If i remember correctly) 16 individual MDC ID to the table(s). So for us it is useless, as far as this is concerned.
We have called motorola, and they have (-0) information reference the SAM module. Hell, I even spoke with one of the engineers in station products who worked on the quantar, and he had no clue on how to do this.
So while I digress, Like the SAM or the RICK, I thought they meant that the MTR had Over the Air capability to do SU/KN.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conventional over the air repeater access, whether by single tone, DTMF, MDC, or other signal format was developed to allow users to access a particular repeater in situations where multiple repeaters share the same RF frequencies in the same or overlapping coverage geography. That way the repeater is deactivated until needed. For example, the 800 MHz NPSPAC mutual aid channel repeaters must be deactivated until needed. Usually the activation is done over the wireline from a dispatch console, but over the air access could also be used.
RAC is not intended to be a subscriber validation system such as the user ID in a trunking system, whereby only users who are configured in the database can access the system and the system administrator can disable lost or stolen units or subscribers who don't pay their bill.
You could use MDC ID and RAC together so that you can disable radios by MDC and have the users be able to activate the repeater as needed. If that is what you want to do - you should use the RAC feature to activate the repeater, not the unit ID. That way all the users of a particular repeater have their radios programmed with unique MDC ID's but a common RAC code.
The RAC code can then be sent automatically at the beginning of every transmission or by pressing an appropriately programmed option button.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes,
I would agree with you on this. The manual states exactly what you did, as far as access to same freq. sites with RAC.
We have had the RAC set up, but not all radios do it, etc. So it has been disabled.
We have currently ordered a cimmaraon decoder, with I beleive over 3,000+ id's (MDC) that can be listed and discriminated, that is what we need and want.
Not to mention the fact that the unit can be hooked up via modem and programmed remotely to add/delete id's.
I will be detailing it's connection in conjunction with a doug hall voter to both the MSF's and quantar/ro.
Thanks, Rob
Back to top
RKG
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 2110
Location: Boston
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you already have a Cimarron CPlus working, and if your radios are all capable of MDC PTT-ID, take a look at what Cimarron calls "Authorize Mode" in the CPlus installation manual. It is fairly easy to implement and works quite well.
Back to top
Dan562
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 445
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Guys,
Is there somethimg I'm missing on the original Post about this MTR2000 station problem?
Somehow you gentlemen XMO, FMROB & RKG got wrapped up in the MSF5000 and Quantar, RAC SAM and MDC signaling discussion which has nothing to do with this individual's MTR2000 problem.
I will point out to you guys that the Quantar SU / KD should interface with the Quantars Wildcard. For Rob, perhaps you spoke to a /\/\ Quantar Product Group Engineer that might have been a RF Hardware individual and does not get involved with the Ancillary TRC, SAM or Wildcard hardware or software functions.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
Calling motorola is like stepping out into a freeway during rush hour blindfolded.
I called, spoke with many different people, and even started a case. It took alost two weeks to hear back from them after speaking to numerous individuals, and the final result was....
We don't know how to solve your problem.
Why is it that you can create multiple tables within the sam, but the only the first table actually functions (table of individual MDC ID's)
If you can answer this, you would be the man..
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan is correct about the previous thread [http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=64940] having morphed pretty far off topic - so I moved these posts to a new thread.
FMROB has a point - there are few at Motorola that are familiar with SAM. For sure, there is at least one guy - I have spoken to him. I had created a case asking for assistance with SAM programming and it finally reached him [after I had talked to a couple other guys who were very courteous but didn't have an answer]
What he told me was basically "What you want to do is possible, but I can't tell you how to do it" After thinking about the response, I realized what he was saying is that some issues you simply have to master on your own - Motorola just does not have the resources to hold your hand on every detail.
He gave me enough pointers to get me started in the right direction and I was successful is setting up the feature I needed.
Next point. The Quantar's repeater setup and knockdown don't need to interface to the station wildcard programming unless you also want to control the feature from the wireline. For over-the-air applications, SAM programming alone is sufficient.
Lastly, the multiple tables that FMROB refers to are associated with SAM "modes". These modes are not directly associated with station modes but can be by creative programming. This would involve the use of the station's wildcard programming. A station wildcard action table would be created to respond to the selection of a station mode by setting the appropriate output(s).
There are SAM wildcard inputs and outputs that are interfaced [in the station] to station wildcard inputs and outputs. That way station wildcard programming can detect inputs from the SAM or send bits to it. SAM wildcard programming can then respond to those bits to execute a SAM action table. That table can then change the SAM mode with the SELSAMMODE command.
Another possibility would be to drive the process with MCS. That would allow you to transmit to the station with a particular PL which MCS would detect as USER XX. Then the station wildcard programming could respond to MCS USER XX by executing an action table that sets bits for the SAM. The corresponding SAM wildcard input bits would be detected by the SAM, causing it to execute a SAM action table which would cause selection of a new SAM mode and thereby give you access to a different decoder table.
Taken together, the station wildcard programming and the SAM programming combine to provide a very powerful set of tools to customize station operation but mastering these capabilities takes a bit of effort.
Back to top
Dan562
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 445
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks XMO,
And there's one other alternative to FMROB's questions about the MSF5000 and Quantar SAM Programming layers. This would be to go to the source who wrote the original software code:
http://douglastechnologies.com/
With /\/\'s Corporate Managements zealous approach of downsizing all of the previous employees, some looked into the future and viewed the situation as an opportunity to change their career paths. Doug just happened to be one of these individuals but he did set-up a company on the side hoping he could grow the business. I would image that anyone contacting Doug should keep their MasterCard or VISA handy since he'll be consulting on the SAM Decoder or other /\/\ products. Doug is a very knowledgeable Engineer.
Back to top
FMROB
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 425
Location: NY
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appologize for helping that thread in the wrong direction.
Hopefully it was all useful information to someone, somewhere.
The folks at Moto weren't mean at all, and were very nice. It is just that they sometimes don't offer much help. I wish I got some pointers on the sam.
XMO, Dan562 As always, I appreciate the help. I got some pointers fro the threads.
It seems have to really sink my teeth into the programming manual.
Thanks guys., Rob
Back to top
Vercomm
1 Warning for RSS Wanted/For Sale
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 245
Location: "Where the Grass is Green and the Girls are Pretty"
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys,
I'm quite interested in learning to program the wildcard tables. I have the following manuals, but have found little info on programming wildcard info.
Radio Service Software User's Guide (68-81096E10-O)
Instruction Manual (68P81095E05-O)
Am i missing it in the manuals somewhere or is it something you just have to sit down with and master by yourself?
Back to top
xmo
Moderator
Joined: 12 Oct 2001
Posts: 1953
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to look for a newer version of the Quantar instruction manual - 68P81095E05-O is the first release. Newer versions will have more interfacing examples in the SYSTEM APPLICATIONS section.
Also, the Quantar RSS manual you should have is 6881085E35. Version suffix -AE of that manual came with RSS version 13. You will want to keep that handy even if you decide to upgrade to using the later Windows based versions.
Unfortunately, the wildcard section in the RSS manual is not a comprehensive tutorial on the feature. The most important information you need isn't printed in the manual. You need to know which station states can be used in wildcard state tables and what actions can be put in the action tables.
That information is in the RSS wildcard help file. It is worth taking the effort to copy that file from the RSS disk and edit down to just the wildcard info without the links the RSS uses to access the file. Then print that out and put it in a binder.
Now you are ready to sit down with a station, a computer, all the books, and your help binder. Do it in the shop, and start experimenting until you get good at it before trying it in the field.
Back to top
RKG
Joined: 10 Dec 2001
Posts: 2110
Location: Boston
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, once again, anyone who is interested in doing RAC, either with or without UserID masking, should take a hard look at the Cimarron C-Plus line of decoders. They are not exactly cheap, but this feature is extremely easy to implement and works quite well, and the Cimarron manual (which is available on the Cimarron site for downloading) is quite useful.