tmn1005A deskmic

[wqgj587]

working on an interface box to use my old motorola TMN1005A-i deksmic with an accessory port on my Vertex Standard vx-2200.

I figured out the ground, ptt, and moni lines and have that part working well.

however, no audio . so, that leaves me with 4 leads. 2 of which are used for speaker and mute. that leaves 2. which are, I assume if i didnt find bad info, that would be Mic low and mic high remaining.
Now I cant figure out where to pin these two.
Can someone maybe advise me a lil further.
here is some basic port pin info on the 2200/

Pin 1 AF IN (analog input)
Pin 2 AF OUT (receiver analog output)
Pin 3 AF Grnd (all logic levels and power supply return)
Pin 4 DC OUT (switched) 13.6 dc to accessory
Pin 5 RSSI (output) Receiver Sig Strength Indicator
Pin 6 EXT PTT
Pin 7 TRX Controll external tx / rx switching circuit (rx = 5V tx=0V)
Pin 8 IGN sense

Pin 9 - Pin 14 (programmable as input port or output port as follows)

When setting the input port, the following are available.
None, MON, DIMMER, Hook, SCAN, Group-SCAN, EMG, CH SW0, CH SW1, CH SW2, CH SW3, TX Low Power, Call1, Call2, Call3, AF min Vr, Ext Beep, Mic PTT Inhibit, ENC off, AF Mute
Note;
The port 6 is available to set only for Input function, and active logic is the opposite side against the Port 1 ~ 4.
Port Function
Input Port (the active logic is described as port 1 ~ 4)
None: No function
MON: The monitor/noise SQ opens when the assigned port becomes high level.
DIMMER: The Illumination (LCD Back-Light) will be off when the assigned port becomes high level.
Hook: The Hook status is off when the assigned port becomes high level.
SCAN: The Scan will be activated while the assigned port is high level. The Scan will stop while the assigned port is high level.
G-SCAN: The Group Scan will be activated while the assigned port is high level. The Group Scan will stop while the assigned port is low level.
EMG: The radio will go into Emergency operation, if the assigned port becomes high level.
CH SW0 ~ 3: By the combination of the "CH SW0", "CH SW1", "CH SW2" and "CH SW3", the operation channel is able to change to specific channel defined at [Common] - [DSUB-15] - [Channel Switch Table].
TX Low Power: The output power will become Low Power while the assigned port is high level. The output power will back to default if the assigned port is low level.
Call1: When the assigned port becomes high level, the radio makes a selective calling which is defined at the [Signalling] - [5-Tone Common] - [Call 1 Encode Code].
Call2: When the assigned port becomes high level, the radio makes a selective calling which is defined at the [Signalling] - [5-Tone Common] - [Call 2 Encode Code].
Call3: When the assigned port becomes high level, the radio makes a selective calling which is defined at the [Signalling] - [5-Tone Common] - [Call 3 Encode Code].
AF Min Vr: When the assigned port becomes high level, the AF Volume is set to Minimum Volume Level which is defined at the [Common] - [Power Saving] - [AF VR MIN Level].
Ext Beep When the assigned port becomes high level, the input audio from external microphone is able to sound from speaker of the radio.
Mic PTT Inhibit During the assigned port becomes high level, pressing the Mic PTT by user will be inhibited.
ENC off The radio will not encode the preset CTCSS/DCS when the radio transmission during the assigned port is high level.
AF Mute During the assigned port becomes high level, the sound from speaker will be muted.

When setting the output port, the following are available.
None, Busy, AF Mute, ACC1, ACC2, Horn Alert, Public Address, PTT, TX Power, EMG(Out), 5T_ACC1, 5T_ACC2, Direct CH1, Direct CH2.
Note;
The port 5 is available to set only for Output function, and active logic is the opposite side against the Port 1 ~ 4.
Port Function
Output Port (the active logic is described as port 1 ~ 4)
None: No function
Busy: It becomes low level when the radio detects a carrier.
AF Mute: It becomes low level when the AF of the radio is muted.
ACC1: It becomes low level for an instant when the ACC1 key is pressed.
ACC2: It becomes low level while the ACC2 key is pressed. During the port is low level, it returns high level by pressing the ACC2 key again.
Horn Alert: It becomes low level for the timer "Horn Alert Time" when the received code corresponds with the defined code.
Public Address: It becomes low level when the PTT is pressed in the "Public Address" mode.
PTT: It becomes low level when the PTT is pressed.
TX Power: It becomes low level when the transmission stands up.
EMG (Out): It becomes low level when the "Emergency" of the "5-Tone Decode" is set Enabled() if the received 5-Tone code corresponds with the pre-defined code.
5T_ACC1: It becomes low level when the received 5-Tone code corresponds with the pre-defined code if the decode action of ACC1 is pre-defined in [Signalling] - [5-Tone Decode] - [ACC Control].
5T_ACC2: It becomes low level when the received 5-Tone code corresponds with the pre-defined code if the decode action of ACC2 is pre-defined in [Signalling] - [5-Tone Decode] - [ACC Control].
Direct CH1: It becomes low level when the assigned Direct CH1 key is pressed.
Direct CH2: It becomes low level when the assigned Direct CH2 key is pressed.


Pin 15 Chassis Ground

Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Tom

[Bill_G]

Did you know that Moto mics require power on the mic hi line?

[wqgj587]

well, I was thinking along the lines of power in,, and,, signal out.

I still am not sure, and dont want to blow a new radio cuz i charged the wrong one.

so, Mic hi, would be power in, maybe use one of the ports and set it as output port for "TX PWR"? while "mic low" maybe to audio inport?

or did i miss the bus on what you were pointing at with what i was thinking?

thanks again
Tom

[Bill_G]

All Moto mics require approx 6Vdc to run the preamp circuit. It is supplied on the mic hi line in the radio. You will have to McGuiver power to the mic so it can be input on the Vertex accy plug.

First, ensure the Vertex will actually transmit audio from the pin 1 AF IN by connecting a test tone, or some other driven source (like from the earphone jack of an AM/FM radio).

Second, ensure you identify mic hi and mic lo correctly on the mic. If you wire it backwards, it won't work, but it won't be damaged either.

Third, connect mic lo to pin 3 of the Vertex accy plug.
Run a 1K resistor from pin 4 (DC pwr out) to pin 1 (AF in) to drive the mic.
Connect mic hi to pin 1.

There is a gain adjustment pot in the mic. It is accessible in the back of the mic through a small rectangular hole which almost no screwdriver in the world will fit through, or you can remove the front cover. Adjust for best audio. If you cannot get enough audio, experiment with reduced resistor values down to 560 ohms.

Hope that helps.

[wqgj587]

just want to repeat back what i understand before i jump and do it.

mic low directly to 3 power out,,
mic high directly to 1 audio in.
jump 1K resistor from 3 power to 1 audio in.
thus, number 3 power carries through the mic pack to pin 1 audio. and it also jumps through the resister connected beside it to same pins.

so, mic leads connect direct to pins, not to the 1K resistor then to the pins.

i do know that pin one will carry the audio in and transmit. this junction cable i am working on has two inputs.
one for mic
one for zetron mod 15 tone encoder.

I have the tone encoder side of it working like it should. was easy to figure out first round
6 plain label connections.
sounds good and clear. activates units as it should.

the mic side. i was just worried about the labels i didn't fully know, mic hi/low.
thanks for all the direction. and will await u'r response to continue

Regards
Tom

[Bill_G]

Read it again. Pin 3 on the Vertex is ground. Pin 4 on the Vertex is DC pwr according to the pinout you wrote above.

[wqgj587]

Doh, i read that i dont know how many times. and still missed it.

and to think,, i had lasik with ideal turn out and now have 20/15 vision. goes to show, we dont always use what we have.

will give that all a go, and let ya know how it turns out.

thanks again
tom

[wqgj587]

hmm.

dead air when keyed.

unless i got something wrong.

from the 1005 mic. blk wire is ground
white was moni switch
Green gets my ptt
clear is my mic lo
brown is mic hi

that leaves me with red and yellow. which if i understand correctly is for a system monitor speaker and mute . which in this application would not be pinned to the radio..

moni switch works.
ptt works
but when keyed, its dead air.

looking at it now,
double check. low went to 3 ground. hi to 1 in. jumped a 1k from 4 power out to 1 in as well.

zetron tone encoder is working fine through it. so i have to assume i have the correct radio pin flow going.
unless i missed the mic color setup. then i dunno where i missed it.

hmm


dunno where i go wrong.


thanks for all your effort.

Tom

[Bill_G]

Looks correct if you have black and shield (you called it clear) tied to pin 3 ground. Does a voltmeter verify you have approx 6-9 volts on pin 1 when keyed? If so, do you have a scope or an audio amp (like a Radio shack battery powered intercom, or an inductive coupler) to check for the presence of mic audio at pin 1?

[wqgj587]

had a multi meter, set to DCV/1000 i failed to get a reading when radio keyed between pins 4 power and 3 grnd/power return.

so it looks as if , either the radio is not pushing out pin 4 as it should, or the 10 foot cable is failing to carry the current to the end. actually, looks more like 12 feet.

the cable leads is solid copper based, looks about like cat 5 grade wires.
will have to break into it and see if there is continuity from end to end.

which i had done but will repeat to check.


i didnt try running the zetron tone on the radio power, as i have a small 12v power supply at the junction box that drops into the cable from that point on to the encoders. so they run on there own power line. that is the only thing that the encoders and the mic dont share.
good thinking. everything else should be common except the power source.. so. either cable wont carry or it cant push that far.
will do some research and get back to ya.

Tom

[wqgj587]

not the cable, power itself not reflecting at the jack of the radio. so looks as if its not putting power out pin 4 as diagrammed

hmm
interesting.

[Bill_G]

Your voltmeter - DCV/1000 - sounds kinda high for measuring approx 12V. Is there another setting?

Can that setting measure 12V into the radio or Zetron correctly? If so, then it would correctly measure pin 4.

[wqgj587]

well, just used the 12 volt for the zetron at the junction. it shows correct. I also picked up at AA batt. and it read it as 1 as well.
so even at lower voltage, it seems to detect.

so looks like this radio dont put out pin 4 like it should.

i opened up the cable end housing to test the back side of the pins. so that is as close as i can get to the jack itself. any other alternatives?

Thanks
Tom

[Bill_G]

Thread a wire with the 1k resistor to the main power of the radio.

[wqgj587]

Thread a wire with the 1k resistor to the main power of the radio.

just to make sure i understand.

run a wire from the main, + line supplying the radio, to the pin 1 in, and this needs to have the resister inline.

jumper wire from + power to the resister to the pin 1 in to supply power to the port for mic audio.

or,

wire from the main + supply, to the cable , replacing the line that was pin 4 accessory power going out to the cable to supply the power to the mic at the junction, where it would pass through the resister put in place at the junction already which was supposed to be the power from the pin 4 of the radio?

sorry if my brain rambles. but if i dont talk it through, i'll end up ,, over looking like b4,

Thanks man, some of this is more than the very basic i know.

Regards
Tom


just an after thought. there is already another 12v supply power at the junction that is used for the zetron. can it come from there. or does it need to flow back to radio for proper ground / circuit function?

[Bill_G]

Yep. You got it. The Zetron connection for 12v should be fine as long as the mic and the Zetron share a ground which I suspect they do since it's all tied together. Put the resistor at the Zetron end of the wire to offer some protection.

I'm always glad to help. It's part of the fun of the hobby.

[jackhackett]

A few points on the vertex 2200....

Pin 1 AF IN - Nominal input level 6mV at 600 ohm.

I believe this is meant for a dynamic type microphone.
They recommend connecting a 0.1uF capacitor between the microphone and input.

A Moto deskmic is probably going to overload the crap out of it.

Pin 4 is supposed to be switched 13.8V with a 1.25A internal fuse.

[wqgj587]

A few points on the vertex 2200....

Pin 1 AF IN - Nominal input level 6mV at 600 ohm.

I believe this is meant for a dynamic type microphone.
They recommend connecting a 0.1uF capacitor between the microphone and input.

A Moto deskmic is probably going to overload the crap out of it.

Pin 4 is supposed to be switched 13.8V with a 1.25A internal fuse.

Hey jackhackett

Thanks for taking time to give some input.
I have the capacitor in place.
running a zetron tone encoder and have it working great with the capacitor in place.
Would you have a recommendation for Dynamic type desk mic?
I had the moto in place and working before when i was using a moto spectra. and had built the custom cable for the zetron and the mic. both worked fine side by side.
until i got up one morning, went to fire up the spectra. and it just didn't fire up.
course i got it second handed. so i guess the 3 years use i got out of it, was all a given anyway.

with the vert st , i did the zetron first, as i needed the encoder, then when i went to do the mic. all was different so i asked for help, Bill_G has been a god send in trying to help me learn as i go.

thus to find, the vert stand is not putting out power of the pin 4 as it is supposed to.
so u'r recommendation would be to go with dynamic mic?

any advise is appreciated.

tom

[wqgj587]

Yep. You got it. The Zetron connection for 12v should be fine as long as the mic and the Zetron share a ground which I suspect they do since it's all tied together. Put the resistor at the Zetron end of the wire to offer some protection.

I'm always glad to help. It's part of the fun of the hobby.

hmm,, should i look into what jackhackett said about a dynamic mic?

i do have the capacitor in place as it recommended prior to anything passing to min 1.

tom

[Bill_G]

Have courage my boy. You can do it. Face the wind and laugh.

The cap was going to be something we discussed later once you determined if you could get the mic to work or not. If running power from the Zetron makes the mic work, there is a good chance it will sound horrible because the level will be too high. You may or may not be able to turn it down enough with the gain pot in the mic. The pot may be critical - one gnat hair either way it will be too loud or too quiet. Finding the sweet spot may be impossible, in which case a series resistor will pad the level enough to help. We could start with 600 ohms if it becomes necessary.

The cap is needed for DC isolation just in case the power on the mic hi line forces the Vertex input amp into an offset. Since you have one in line with the Zetron already, you can connect your mic hi line to the Zetron side of the cap, and stone two birds with one bush. Or maybe not. Maybe the Zetron will gasp and start sounding low or mushy with DC present on it's output in which case you'll need separate caps for the Zetron and the mic.

When you get done, after it's all working, then you can neaten it up, and be proud of your effort.

[wqgj587]

Have courage my boy. You can do it. Face the wind and laugh.
.......
When you get done, after it's all working, then you can neaten it up, and be proud of your effort.

the courage i got, as long as your patients holds out.



ok.
Here is the latest.

No, I had two separate grounds. the reason being. is on the zetron, it has a system/audio ground, and a power return ground.
This i figure it because the audio needs grounded through the radio. but the power supply is not from the radio. its through one of the lil power supply blocks.
It is just plugged into the small black junction box i built for this. it has the cable from the radio. power jack, mic port jack and the zetron port jack.

now, if i put all the grounds on one. then it causes the tone sound to be dirty. i can turn on the built in mic and the audio is clean. i just dont like the back in a whole sound that the built in mic on the zetron encoder produces no matter what situation its in. and i make a jump from the zetron power to the pin 1, using the 1k resister, all to the upstream side of the 0.1uF capacitor that vertex calls for. The result, as i said, was dirty tones, clean voice audio on the zetron, and the moto mic works. but it too has a dirty sound. u can hear it well. but it has a dirty vibration sound. I dont know how else to explain.

so, should i make the jump from the main radio power supply and try that? maybe for a cleaner sound?

is there a way to isolate and clean up using the power the way it currently sets.

hmm
maybe if i use main radio power, i could as well jump it to supply the zetron encoder and eliminate another power supply block plugged in.

sorry, again, my mind rambles through things.
Interested in your opinion on which way you would go there.


thanks
tom
and thanks for the direction. at least i am learning some things,, a lil anyway

[Bill_G]

I was wondering when we would get to hums and ground loops. Zetron is pretty good about supplying isolated returns and contact closures to help minimize ground loops. If the Zetron runs on 12v, and there is a good chance it does, then you should consolidate. Then you can work on any audio quality issues afterwards. It sounds like we are half way to making the mic work. You got some sound out of it. Let's see how it sounds after you tie the radio and the encoder to the same power supply.

[wqgj587]

Hey Bill

sorry so late today, this is yard work day,, and boy,,, my butts still layin out in the yard trying to get up the go go to come in and join me.

And well anyway,, UPDATE.

consolidated power and ground. all is running off of the main power supply, which is one less item plugged in the wall using power,, yay,

zetron, running great, sound good. That is both voice audio and tone, ( well, except for the general in a hole sound of a built in mic in the zetron ) the mic is also working, but not as clean.
something I notice is. the sound. it is comparable to the sound of the zetron if i have it set wrong. let me see, If i set it for, High Output Imedance, it sounds like the mike. When i set the jumper to in/on, for low output impedance then it sounds fine. so, the mic has a dirty sound, I popped the front cover and adjusted it down some. as low as i could get it and hear it, and its a lil better. but still has a dirty sound. sorta makes me sound very very gruff in my voice. family said that it makes it hard to understand what i am saying. I had them monitor a test transmission. so there is still some tweaking somewhere.

not sure if that makes sense or if i need to translate my mind ramble,,LOL

Have a great weekend

Tom

[Bill_G]

Jackhackett brought this up earlier that the mic level may be way to high for the radio input. Add a 10k variable pot inline where it joins the radio. Adjust the mic internal pot to halfway, and then adjust the external pot until the audio sounds correct.

[wqgj587]

Jackhackett brought this up earlier that the mic level may be way to high for the radio input. Add a 10k variable pot inline where it joins the radio. Adjust the mic internal pot to halfway, and then adjust the external pot until the audio sounds correct.

I notice there are different styles.

do you recommend a certain one? connections. I notice there are , three. would be,, mic high, to number 3, ground to number 1, and out to the radio input pin on pin 2 (wiper).?


i dread this, i suck at soldering.

will have to make a trip to radio shack amorrow to grab one.

Thanks again
Tom

[Bill_G]

Very good. I would try that. It put's a constant load on the mic and you vary the input to the radio which is probably high impedance for dynamic mics and won't notice if the pot gets close to ground. However, it might affect the Zetron then as the wiper gets close to ground. So, on second thought, put 3 at radio input, 1 at radio ground, and mic hi to the wiper to reduce the interaction. Gives the Zetron a constant load, and varies the mic input.

Radio Shack is a good choice for this.

Tin your stripped wires first. Then give them a little J bend to lace the pot eyelets, pinch them closed, finish the solder. quick and easy.

[wqgj587]

Well, I bet you'll be glad to know that it seems like i was able to work out a decent balance by doing that.
I have to be a little closer to the mic than i did before. but to get a good quality sound on everything, it did bring it down where it sounded right. So i can deal with being a lil closer to the mic.
keeps down background noise anyway.

Thanks every so much for all the headache u took helping to walk me through all that.

Regards
Tom

[Bill_G]

Well, you're very welcome Tom. My pleasure. I imagine you played with this a bit, but the internal mic pot should set the overall sensitivity, and the external pot will set the overall transmit level. Hopefully the external pot gave you enough latitude without having to find a tiny sweet spot that is impossible to find again if the control gets bumped.

[wqgj587]

well, the internal if set higher to make it more sensitive makes the voice start to growl / sound gruff. so i sorta have to strike a balance and go a lil less sensitive, and bring the volume up a little with the external.

either way, it works. all of which, is thanks to you.

Tom

[Bill_G]

You're welcome, and you learned something. Good day all around.