Hi guys.
This question probably has been asked a million times BUT...I have this problem. I tried to test astro between my ASIII and a friends XTS3000. It works great from the XTS and to the ASIII but the other way around the ASIII unmutes after 5-6 sec. We programmed both radios at the same time and they are programmed 100% alike. Both radioes came from Nick and have the normal "Watchbuddy" flash code. My friend told me that he once looked thru a few topics on the board that actually decribed others having similar problems.
Another question I want to ask is why both radios have trouble with a lot of squelch tale in 50% of the end of recieving both strong and week signals. I have a lot of jedi radios and non of them have this problem. The astro radios are programmed properly.
If someone knows either to fix this or at least explain these things please let me know, thanks.
Trouble talking in astro mode.
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Radio Intelligence Agency
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Dale Earnhardt
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I can share my experience a few months ago...
3 radios: 2 nick XTS's and one factory rig.
The factory radio heard both. The 2 nick whore jobs didn't hear each other, but they both heard the factory radio. The codeplugs were checked with a fine toothed comb, and numerous phone calls to Nick and others netted very little help.
Alignment was the problem. They worked great in regular FM mode but as soon as you went astro, that is when the trouble began.
Jay
3 radios: 2 nick XTS's and one factory rig.
The factory radio heard both. The 2 nick whore jobs didn't hear each other, but they both heard the factory radio. The codeplugs were checked with a fine toothed comb, and numerous phone calls to Nick and others netted very little help.
Alignment was the problem. They worked great in regular FM mode but as soon as you went astro, that is when the trouble began.
Jay
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Dale Earnhardt
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Radio Intelligence Agency
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That´s strange because the xts3000 works great when talking to a friends astro spectra. So it seems that it´s only the ASIII that has this problem. Anyway as I hear you all the radios probably need to be alligned again. Only problem is that M. do not support astro equipment here cause no one uses it.
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Dale Earnhardt
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The radio alignment is analog. The mod comp alignment is similar to the mod comp alignment of a MT 2000 (analog) but is actually easier as the Astro radios generate their own audio tones internally and do not require an external audio source.
All the shop needs is a calibrated service monitor.
George
All the shop needs is a calibrated service monitor.
George
If you just sit down in front of your service monitor and perform this alignment - odds are you will get it wrong!
The default filter settings for most monitors [R2001D/R2600/R2670/HP8920] are optimized for voice. The high tone for this alignment is 3000 Hz. The default filter selection will roll this off causing you to set it higher than you should, thereby adversely affecting the Astro modulation.
The radio service manual doesn't warn you about this. It tells you the alignment is critical for signalling schemes such as DPL but doesn't tell you it is critical for Astro.
This issue has caused so much trouble that Motorola has started recommending the use of an Agilent 8901B modulation analyzer to perform the alignment. They also give specific instructions for the filter settings on this instrument to assure accurate results.
The default filter settings for most monitors [R2001D/R2600/R2670/HP8920] are optimized for voice. The high tone for this alignment is 3000 Hz. The default filter selection will roll this off causing you to set it higher than you should, thereby adversely affecting the Astro modulation.
The radio service manual doesn't warn you about this. It tells you the alignment is critical for signalling schemes such as DPL but doesn't tell you it is critical for Astro.
This issue has caused so much trouble that Motorola has started recommending the use of an Agilent 8901B modulation analyzer to perform the alignment. They also give specific instructions for the filter settings on this instrument to assure accurate results.
Common sense? Motorola? [ANY big company?]
Dilbert exists for a reason!
There probably is a slight technical superiority in using 3000 Hz instead of 1000 Hz. Some engineer insisted on doing it this way to get the last fraction of a percent of accuracy - then by failing to put adequate instructions into the service manual they guaranteed hundreds of problems down the road.
Probably not an example of six-sigma thinking - either that or the WANT the shops in the field to fall on their face, thereby creating more business for the depot.
Dilbert exists for a reason!
There probably is a slight technical superiority in using 3000 Hz instead of 1000 Hz. Some engineer insisted on doing it this way to get the last fraction of a percent of accuracy - then by failing to put adequate instructions into the service manual they guaranteed hundreds of problems down the road.
Probably not an example of six-sigma thinking - either that or the WANT the shops in the field to fall on their face, thereby creating more business for the depot.
Mod comp alignment
First of all - mod comp alignment SUCKS because you aren't measuring what you are aligning. The proper way to align a P25 radio is to measure C4FM modulation fidelity.
The mod comp adjustment "sort of" aligns the radio to "kind of" get a "sort of OK" modulation fidelity. The idea is that you adjust the bottom and the top frequency response of the radio (hence the 80 and 3K tones) to try to get a frequency response that will give you a proper C4FM waveform, if all goes well. The middle of the band (1K) is your reference - think of a 3 band graphic equalizer.
However, you can be bang on in the 80 and 3K settings and still have a lousy C4FM fidelity, since there are a myriad of things between 80 and 3K that can hose you up. What you need to do is to adjust the 80 and 3K settings while watching the C4FM fidelity.
Unfortunately, the Motorola tuning software won't let you adjust the settings while the radio puts out a C4FM waveform, and the General Dynamics service monitor does not measure C4FM.
OK, I am biased as hell, but if you want to align an APCO25 radio correctly (ESPECIALLY if you are talking Motorola LSM or APCO25 Phase 2 CQPSK), you need something that can measure the fidelity of the APCO standard C4FM waveform. That would either be an Agilent spec-an with the APCO personality module loaded, or an Agilent vector signal analyzer, or an IFR 2975.
But once again, I am biased as hell.
The mod comp adjustment "sort of" aligns the radio to "kind of" get a "sort of OK" modulation fidelity. The idea is that you adjust the bottom and the top frequency response of the radio (hence the 80 and 3K tones) to try to get a frequency response that will give you a proper C4FM waveform, if all goes well. The middle of the band (1K) is your reference - think of a 3 band graphic equalizer.
However, you can be bang on in the 80 and 3K settings and still have a lousy C4FM fidelity, since there are a myriad of things between 80 and 3K that can hose you up. What you need to do is to adjust the 80 and 3K settings while watching the C4FM fidelity.
Unfortunately, the Motorola tuning software won't let you adjust the settings while the radio puts out a C4FM waveform, and the General Dynamics service monitor does not measure C4FM.
OK, I am biased as hell, but if you want to align an APCO25 radio correctly (ESPECIALLY if you are talking Motorola LSM or APCO25 Phase 2 CQPSK), you need something that can measure the fidelity of the APCO standard C4FM waveform. That would either be an Agilent spec-an with the APCO personality module loaded, or an Agilent vector signal analyzer, or an IFR 2975.
But once again, I am biased as hell.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
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Radio Intelligence Agency
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Okay, thanks that´s very interesting.
The sound quality sucks in astro mode, lots of "wave" noises. I don´t know if Nick did it wrong? I have nothing to complain about when operating in normal FM mode and that´s what I do mostly but one of the radios sure have probs operating properly when it comes to astro. I set both the XTS and ASIII for C4FM. That´s what my friend which friend from the big M. here recommended, so that´s what I did but still it didn´t change a thing. As I said the sound quality is poor.
Some other thing about sending the radioes into the depot. That´s an option of course but require inside contacts to avoid serius trouble due to the "watchbuddy" radioes serial number conflict!
My friend had to admit that he didn´t like the idea of trying to allign the radios on the normal robot due to the fact that he simply wouldn´t know what to pull and what not to. He has no experience in apco25 radioes....so far.
The sound quality sucks in astro mode, lots of "wave" noises. I don´t know if Nick did it wrong? I have nothing to complain about when operating in normal FM mode and that´s what I do mostly but one of the radios sure have probs operating properly when it comes to astro. I set both the XTS and ASIII for C4FM. That´s what my friend which friend from the big M. here recommended, so that´s what I did but still it didn´t change a thing. As I said the sound quality is poor.
Some other thing about sending the radioes into the depot. That´s an option of course but require inside contacts to avoid serius trouble due to the "watchbuddy" radioes serial number conflict!
My friend had to admit that he didn´t like the idea of trying to allign the radios on the normal robot due to the fact that he simply wouldn´t know what to pull and what not to. He has no experience in apco25 radioes....so far.
"wave" noises?
I'd be interested in hearing what you are terming "wave" noises.
I know what normal high bit error rate sounds like - I've always described it as "watery" at first, then at the BER falls through the floor the it just breaks up into random garbage - much like what happens when listening to a Real Audio stream and the 'Net starts to get congested (and for the same reason).
But I would tend to agree with your friend - if you don't have access to the equipment to measure the radio, don't try to cal it.
I know what normal high bit error rate sounds like - I've always described it as "watery" at first, then at the BER falls through the floor the it just breaks up into random garbage - much like what happens when listening to a Real Audio stream and the 'Net starts to get congested (and for the same reason).
But I would tend to agree with your friend - if you don't have access to the equipment to measure the radio, don't try to cal it.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
The filters in my R2670 are factory defaulted at 5Hz to 20KHz. I have to change it manually (choices being 3KHz and 300Hz) to do things like DPL/PL decode.xmo wrote: The default filter settings for most monitors [R2001D/R2600/R2670/HP8920] are optimized for voice. The high tone for this alignment is 3000 Hz. The default filter selection will roll this off causing you to set it higher than you should, thereby adversely affecting the Astro modulation.
Todd
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Welcome to the /\/\achine.
Default filters
For what it is worth, while we still recommend that users check the C4FM modulation fidelity error, the 2975 also supplies narrowband 80 Hz and 3kHz filters, since the Motorola manuals only provide the modulation compensation tests.
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
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Radio Intelligence Agency
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What I ment by "wave" was that it sounds like a cooler from an old pc cabinet going crazy execpt that the noise isn´t constant but alternating.
Anyway my prob is that I don´t have anything to hold my tests up against so it´s as close as it gets. Maybe astro just sounds like that after all if you wanna talk astro - I simply wouldn´t know. As I said no one uses it here. The Tetra-net here developed by M. and Niros is the european version of an apco25 system. My friend thought that he might have a chance on my XTS and ASIII if the basics are the same as on the Tetra radioes.
Todd was it regarding the reverse burst problems?
Anyway my prob is that I don´t have anything to hold my tests up against so it´s as close as it gets. Maybe astro just sounds like that after all if you wanna talk astro - I simply wouldn´t know. As I said no one uses it here. The Tetra-net here developed by M. and Niros is the european version of an apco25 system. My friend thought that he might have a chance on my XTS and ASIII if the basics are the same as on the Tetra radioes.
Todd was it regarding the reverse burst problems?