WOW! As OJ's lawyer used to say, "This is a bombshell! This is HUGE!"
Check out the NEW ICOM digital voice radio. It is using the latest AMBE++ VOCODER that is slated for P25 Phase II. 2.4 kb/s voice half-rate coder. You can listen to actual WAV's of this latest VOCODER on DVSI's site. It uses one half the bandwidth of the now outdated/old Phase I P25 IMBE VOCODER, while its advanced technology allows it to sound even better!
http://www.icom.co.jp/world/products/am ... /index.htm
UHF version is soon to follow, as well as a dual bander, plus handheld versions. The repeater will be the D-STAR repeater.
Notice that it also supports SIMULTANEOUS AMBE digital voice PLUS 2.4 kb's digital data. This will be nice for APRS (which Kenwood runs at only half this rate, 1200 bps, and it does NOT support simultaneous voice).
Move over, Motorola! Ain't competition a wonderfuil thing?!
Larry
ICOM Introduces AMBE+ Radio---Holy Cow!
Moderator: Queue Moderator
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
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larry...
without being disrespectful....
for now, it's 100% vaporware.
being sold in Japan doesn't mean there is even a timetable for US release.
and i don't see the line forming to the right for any of the d-star repeaters, either.... especially due to their cost.
sorry man, but ain't no freakin' ICOM going to replace a quantar, not today, not tomorrow, not in the next 5 years.
(please insert here... I HOPE TO GOD there is a non-hardware flash upgrade for IMBE to AMBE... 'cause one thing you ARE right on target with .... AMBE is "da bomb")
doug
for now, it's 100% vaporware.
being sold in Japan doesn't mean there is even a timetable for US release.
and i don't see the line forming to the right for any of the d-star repeaters, either.... especially due to their cost.
sorry man, but ain't no freakin' ICOM going to replace a quantar, not today, not tomorrow, not in the next 5 years.
(please insert here... I HOPE TO GOD there is a non-hardware flash upgrade for IMBE to AMBE... 'cause one thing you ARE right on target with .... AMBE is "da bomb")
doug
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
D-STAR and the VHF AMBE radio are due stateside in time for this year's Dayton. Sorry, but the D-STAR repeater is way more sophisticated than the Quant, Batdude. Remember, the Quant was designed in 1989, some 15 years ago. Yes, it was very advanced in its time.
As to cost, lets compare about $20,000+ for a new Quant to $3,000 for a brand new D-STAR repeater.
ASTRO IVD runs at 4800 baud, compared to D-STAR which runs at 128 kb/s. Not even close! 1.5 Mb/s and faster is feasible by running parallel systems.
Also, the D-STAR repeater system uses one sharable digital controller, so that the repeater owner will be able to deploy VHF, UHF and/or 1.2 GHz band repeaters using just a single D-STAR digital controller. Awesome.
The coolest thing is how seemlessly D-STAR will tie into the Internet---pure digital, as opposed to todays A/D stuff (e.g., IRLP, WIRES, Echolink, PC soundcard lash-ups, etc.). No more analog with D-STAR (except for the human's analog voice, of course!).
We'll know for sure, once the D-STAR product line is actually on the US market ("The proof is in the puding!"). They keep delaying its launch as ICOM Japan keeps on sending new awesome D-STAR features via firmware loads. Just ONE LAST cool new feature to add every time, and then they will launch. This has been the case since last Fall, but I think most Hams will say the wait was well worthwhile. I guess we shall see..
Larry
P.S. I have repeatedly asked Motorola about the possibility of a firmware uplift to support AMBE, and they have consistently and emphatically said "No" every time. You might want to talk with DVSI for details on this point, Doug. It will supposedly entail a complete h/w changeout, exept for the Quantar replacement machine, which will handle a firmware uplift to support P25 Phase II AMBE. Rememeber, P25 Phase II will involve changing from IMBE to AMBE++, going from FDMA to TDMA schemes, and supporting 6.25 kHz channel spacing. These are HUGE changes, and go beyond firmware uplifts.
As to cost, lets compare about $20,000+ for a new Quant to $3,000 for a brand new D-STAR repeater.
ASTRO IVD runs at 4800 baud, compared to D-STAR which runs at 128 kb/s. Not even close! 1.5 Mb/s and faster is feasible by running parallel systems.
Also, the D-STAR repeater system uses one sharable digital controller, so that the repeater owner will be able to deploy VHF, UHF and/or 1.2 GHz band repeaters using just a single D-STAR digital controller. Awesome.
The coolest thing is how seemlessly D-STAR will tie into the Internet---pure digital, as opposed to todays A/D stuff (e.g., IRLP, WIRES, Echolink, PC soundcard lash-ups, etc.). No more analog with D-STAR (except for the human's analog voice, of course!).
We'll know for sure, once the D-STAR product line is actually on the US market ("The proof is in the puding!"). They keep delaying its launch as ICOM Japan keeps on sending new awesome D-STAR features via firmware loads. Just ONE LAST cool new feature to add every time, and then they will launch. This has been the case since last Fall, but I think most Hams will say the wait was well worthwhile. I guess we shall see..
Larry
P.S. I have repeatedly asked Motorola about the possibility of a firmware uplift to support AMBE, and they have consistently and emphatically said "No" every time. You might want to talk with DVSI for details on this point, Doug. It will supposedly entail a complete h/w changeout, exept for the Quantar replacement machine, which will handle a firmware uplift to support P25 Phase II AMBE. Rememeber, P25 Phase II will involve changing from IMBE to AMBE++, going from FDMA to TDMA schemes, and supporting 6.25 kHz channel spacing. These are HUGE changes, and go beyond firmware uplifts.
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
In general, AMBE does not run slower than IMBE, unless you intentially choose a low rate VOCODER, Shaun. You might want to go to DVSI's site and check this out. For instance, you can get AMBE VOCODERs that run at 64 kB/s. Just depends upon what you want. On the other hand, the half-rate Phase 2 P25 VOCODER will definitely run at a slower speed than the current P25 Phase I IMBE unit, by choice and by design.
We are currently looking at DVSI's Internet box in order to connect multiple DIU3000's together across the Net. We may choose to use a 64 kb/s AMBE VOCODER because we have broadband connections at each end, and we also plan to use high quality full duplex voice outside of our ASTRO System, so we want maximum voice quality. I think you might be confusing APCO standards for Phase I vs/ Phase II with VOCODER rates standards, as opposed to VOCODER capabilities.
Shaun, I have asked Motorola repeatedly about the possibility of a firmware uplift to change their ASTRO radios from IMBE to AMBE. They have consistently told me it would require a significant hardware change (read that: New radio!).
DVSI confirmed this for me. You might want to speak with a DVSI Engineer on this point---they can explain why the DSP can NOT be uplifted from IMBE to AMBE. There is a h/w difference, in addition to the firmware issue. I know, it's too darn bad, but that's just the way the ball bounces!
Larry
We are currently looking at DVSI's Internet box in order to connect multiple DIU3000's together across the Net. We may choose to use a 64 kb/s AMBE VOCODER because we have broadband connections at each end, and we also plan to use high quality full duplex voice outside of our ASTRO System, so we want maximum voice quality. I think you might be confusing APCO standards for Phase I vs/ Phase II with VOCODER rates standards, as opposed to VOCODER capabilities.
Shaun, I have asked Motorola repeatedly about the possibility of a firmware uplift to change their ASTRO radios from IMBE to AMBE. They have consistently told me it would require a significant hardware change (read that: New radio!).
DVSI confirmed this for me. You might want to speak with a DVSI Engineer on this point---they can explain why the DSP can NOT be uplifted from IMBE to AMBE. There is a h/w difference, in addition to the firmware issue. I know, it's too darn bad, but that's just the way the ball bounces!
Larry
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Tom in D.C.
- Posts: 3859
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- What radios do you own?: Progreso soup can with CRT
IC2200...
One of the German ham sites states the availabiliity of this radio to be Summer 2004, FWIW.
I'll wait for the dualbander.
I'll wait for the dualbander.
Tom in D.C.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
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Victor Xray
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2001 4:00 pm
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Tom in D.C.
- Posts: 3859
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- What radios do you own?: Progreso soup can with CRT
DVSI etc.
Here is their 2020 site:
http://www.dvsinc.com/products/a2020.htm
http://www.dvsinc.com/products/a2020.htm
Tom in D.C.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
In 1920, the U.S. Post Office Department ruled
that children may not be sent by parcel post.
DVSI homepageMARS wrote:First, I would like to ask where can a person obtain more knowledge on what AMBE is?
I think you are confused as to where this fits into the world - the vocoder has NO impact on encryption whatsoever (other than the fact that every bit the vocoder has to spit out has to be encoded).MARS wrote: Second, as this may be good news for Ham operators, but what about those individuals that require secure encryption (DES XL, or AES)? Hey, guys (Motorola, EF Johnson, MA-COM) lets get with the program!
MARS
The vocoder's job is to take the relatively high-data rate information from the analog to digital converter listening to the mike and convert it into a lower data rate that can reasonably be transmitted over the air - to that end, the current standard vocoder, IMBE (also from DVSI), takes 8000 samples a second of audio data (at between 8 to 16 bits per sample, for 64 or 128 kbits/second), and converts it to about 4800 bits per second (I am too lazy to look up the exact numbers). AMBE can get the same basic quality for about 2400 bits/second.
After that, then the compressed data is encoded using one of a variety of algorithms - either the null algorithm (no encryption), single DES, triple DES, or AES.
After that, the voice data is forward error corrected (to allow errors to be corrected at the receiver), framing data added, and transmitted.
So the choice of vocoder has NO impact upon encryption whatsoever. For example, should the TIA approve AMBE as a standard for normal APCO-25, I'd just add the AMBE vocoder code to the processing chain. (However, the idea is to move to AMBE and a 2 slot time domain multiple access format, and that would get a bit tricker.)
A standard Motorola, Bendix King, Kenwood, Johnson, Thales, etc. radio can already support DES and AES - I have a couple right here (after all, how to you think those guys TEST their radios?) In fact we had to get Moto to upgrade our 3000 and 5000 to add AES to check things out (on both sides - Moto's implementation and ours).
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
Question
Hello,
I have a question regarding digital modulation techniques. What is the difference between IMBE and AMBE? I know that APCO Project 25 uses IMBE. In a recent message posted here the new Icom DStar radios were discussed. They will be using AMBE. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I have a question regarding digital modulation techniques. What is the difference between IMBE and AMBE? I know that APCO Project 25 uses IMBE. In a recent message posted here the new Icom DStar radios were discussed. They will be using AMBE. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
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fireradio
- Batboard $upporter
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:00 pm
- What radios do you own?: Various APX series
Looks like the 2200H is here!! It's advertised in the latest issue of the AES catalog, and its up on AES's website for US $229.
http://search.cartserver.com/search/sea ... 0&go=GO%21
This could be pretty exciting. I wonder how long it will be before the optional digital board (UT-115) is for sale. And I wonder how much it will cost... Seeing as how most hams probably won't go out and buy the digital board on their own, it would've been better if Icom had just built the digital circuitry into the radio, but oh well.
I guess it just means I'll have a bit more "privacy" whenever I use this radio with my friends.
My other gripes with this radio are the crappy display and lack of remote mounting options. Is dot-matrix too much to ask? Just read the user manual -- with all the menu crap you have to go through on this radio, you'll see why dot-matrix would've been nice.
All that aside, it still looks like a good radio, and digital voice + data is definitely worth putting up with its small shortcomings.
The user manual is here: http://www.chq-inc.com/icom/manuals/ic-2200h-om.pdf
and the sales brochure is here: http://www.chq-inc.com/icom/brochures/ic-2200H-b.pdf
http://search.cartserver.com/search/sea ... 0&go=GO%21
This could be pretty exciting. I wonder how long it will be before the optional digital board (UT-115) is for sale. And I wonder how much it will cost... Seeing as how most hams probably won't go out and buy the digital board on their own, it would've been better if Icom had just built the digital circuitry into the radio, but oh well.
I guess it just means I'll have a bit more "privacy" whenever I use this radio with my friends.My other gripes with this radio are the crappy display and lack of remote mounting options. Is dot-matrix too much to ask? Just read the user manual -- with all the menu crap you have to go through on this radio, you'll see why dot-matrix would've been nice.
All that aside, it still looks like a good radio, and digital voice + data is definitely worth putting up with its small shortcomings.
The user manual is here: http://www.chq-inc.com/icom/manuals/ic-2200h-om.pdf
and the sales brochure is here: http://www.chq-inc.com/icom/brochures/ic-2200H-b.pdf
OSS
"Keeping public safety on the air..."
"Keeping public safety on the air..."
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
It also looks like you need an addon board for the digital in that radio. The price tag made me go... oh... where's my wallet, and then I saw that it was an "option." OH wait, I'd also need someone to talk to who had one too. I liked the overal look of the 1.2ghz dstar stuff, just give me UHF/VHF for voice, and a cheap 1.2ghz modem setup.
Read carefully.
-Alex
Read carefully.
-Alex
The Radio Information Board: http://www.radioinfoboard.com
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
The guys as the local ham shop say that Yaesu is suppose to be introducing some super radio at Dayton next week that is suppose to blow ICOM away. Something about one radio covering 6m thru 1.2GHz + and maybe with digital as well. Another radio with add-on cards for more things.
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
I think the best part of this whole thing is that at dayton, those will sell for penny's compared to what will be the price next week. While Yaesu radios can be hard to use at times, usually they are worth the price for "features".Pj wrote:The guys as the local ham shop say that Yaesu is suppose to be introducing some super radio at Dayton next week that is suppose to blow ICOM away. Something about one radio covering 6m thru 1.2GHz + and maybe with digital as well. Another radio with add-on cards for more things.
$225 for the Icom doesn't sound bad, but really, they going to now charge us $400 for the digital card?
-Alex
The Radio Information Board: http://www.radioinfoboard.com
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
That's really not all that bad. Anyone have any links to what Yaesu might be offering?
I wouldn't mind seeing a radio that's both IMBE and AMBE complient, so you can at least listen to other stuff around you in digital.
-Alex
I wouldn't mind seeing a radio that's both IMBE and AMBE complient, so you can at least listen to other stuff around you in digital.
-Alex
The Radio Information Board: http://www.radioinfoboard.com
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
Your source for information on: Harris/Ma-Comm/EFJ/RELM/Kenwood/ICOM/Thales, equipment.
.
tell me it's a handheld...pleeeeeease.
I hope they work the bugs out first this time (or have firmware upgradability). No one wants another vx-5 / 7 situation.
-c
I hope they work the bugs out first this time (or have firmware upgradability). No one wants another vx-5 / 7 situation.
-c
Pj wrote:The guys as the local ham shop say that Yaesu is suppose to be introducing some super radio at Dayton next week that is suppose to blow ICOM away. Something about one radio covering 6m thru 1.2GHz + and maybe with digital as well. Another radio with add-on cards for more things.
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ASTROMODAT
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:32 am
"Something about one radio covering 6m thru 1.2GHz..."
ICOM previously had an FM mobile radio covering 10M thru 1.2 GHz back in 1988 (IC-900 and later the IC-901). It involved 6 band units (remote mount). Even with all six band units the stack was quite small. No one wanted it. I don't think it was even a price issue. It's just that 98% of the mobile/portable Ham action was (and still is!) on either 2M and/or 440 MHz. Activity on these previously popular bands is now dying a quick and decisive death. Repeater activity, even on the biggest and most popular 2M repeaters, has been exponentially declining over the past 2 to 3 years (now that cellular is dirt cheap and everyone, even 10 year old kids) has a cell phone (now with full motion video!). The other 2% of the dying Ham traffic is spread across the other 4 bands. Even ICOM's cheap AMBE radios will probably be too little, too late. Take a look at ICOM's earnings statement. In the past three years, notice the trend of dollars going from Ham to commercial lines. Wonder how much the 6 Ham bands will go for at auction, as NexTel buys it up? Got to give Craig credit---next to Gates, he's the sharpest entrepreneur out there.
Larry
ICOM previously had an FM mobile radio covering 10M thru 1.2 GHz back in 1988 (IC-900 and later the IC-901). It involved 6 band units (remote mount). Even with all six band units the stack was quite small. No one wanted it. I don't think it was even a price issue. It's just that 98% of the mobile/portable Ham action was (and still is!) on either 2M and/or 440 MHz. Activity on these previously popular bands is now dying a quick and decisive death. Repeater activity, even on the biggest and most popular 2M repeaters, has been exponentially declining over the past 2 to 3 years (now that cellular is dirt cheap and everyone, even 10 year old kids) has a cell phone (now with full motion video!). The other 2% of the dying Ham traffic is spread across the other 4 bands. Even ICOM's cheap AMBE radios will probably be too little, too late. Take a look at ICOM's earnings statement. In the past three years, notice the trend of dollars going from Ham to commercial lines. Wonder how much the 6 Ham bands will go for at auction, as NexTel buys it up? Got to give Craig credit---next to Gates, he's the sharpest entrepreneur out there.
Larry
Isn't that the new FT9000DX (or something like that)? Icom has already shipped and sold it's first run of the IC-7800 super radio. At $11,000 a pop I guess there's lots of hamsexy types with money just burning a hole in their pocket.Pj wrote:The guys as the local ham shop say that Yaesu is suppose to be introducing some super radio at Dayton next week that is suppose to blow ICOM away. Something about one radio covering 6m thru 1.2GHz + and maybe with digital as well. Another radio with add-on cards for more things.