Nextel Base Station Question

[Quadrasound]

I'd figure I would ask the experts on this:

My question is: How many subscribers can one Nextel site handle?


Reasoning: We are developing a plan for a response in case of a terrorist strike, or something of a large magnitude for our town.

The current idea is have all the municipal people/fire/police/ems use their Nextel's for interopability.

My problem with it is, IF we were to put this plan into effect during an incident, you would have all of us on there, plus news media, bystanders, etc. using their Nextels at the same time, would it put our one Nextel site "system busy try later"??

My thoughts are to have a UHF repeater aside from the County system we work off of.

I have asked this question to 3 Nextel dealers, and they look at me like I'm not from this planet!

Your ideas are welcome!
Thanks,
Chuck

[KG6EAQ]

It depends on the locations of the site and how many sectors it has. Sites in areas where it won't make as much money don't normally have a full blown site. I don't recall though what the steps of users for nextel are. If the site is in a very big metro area it will probably handle a good deal of people. Also remember that nextel sites only have about a mile range. Also a lot of nextel sites rely on microwave (At least in my area) for their network connection. If the relay site goes down then that site is on it's own and nationwide DC is out the window.

[xmo]

Nextel will be glad to take your money - but first - do your homework - a little history lesson - for example see what happened to communications on public networks during 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing.

Most consultants recommend that you NEVER EVER put critical public safety communications on shared networks - particularly networks that are shared with the general public.

Whatever the network operator wants to tell you about being able to 'prioritize' your traffic - well it's a nice story. [you buy their story? Good - you wanna buy a bridge? - have I got a deal for you]

Quadrasound? SQ? QS? CD-4?

[KG6EAQ]

The current idea is have all the municipal people/fire/police/ems use their Nextel's for interopability.

I forgot to ask, who came up with this idea? Have you not spoken with your APCO coordinator? I don't think APCO is very fond of Nextel.

I have asked this question to 3 Nextel dealers, and they look at me like I'm not from this planet!

I'm suprised they didn't say "As many as you need!" or "It can handle anything!"

[Quadrasound]

The current idea is have all the municipal people/fire/police/ems use their Nextel's for interopability.

I forgot to ask, who came up with this idea? Have you not spoken with your APCO coordinator? I don't think APCO is very fond of Nextel.

I have asked this question to 3 Nextel dealers, and they look at me like I'm not from this planet!

I'm suprised they didn't say "As many as you need!" or "It can handle anything!"

This was our town's supervisors idea! All of them just got I60's and think they are the greatest invention since the wheel! I AM NOT HAPPY about this plan, but I need proof that this is NOT a good idea. If someone could direct me to some sites or publications relating to this issue, it would help me put some "holes" in this plan.

The only time I have dealt with an APCO rep. is when we applied for the license for our 500Mhz. narrowband repeater. This serves as a backup to our county system, which has failed numerous times.

Thanks all,
Chuck N3MER

[KG6EAQ]

This was our town's supervisors idea! All of them just got I60's and think they are the greatest invention since the wheel! I AM NOT HAPPY about this plan, but I need proof that this is NOT a good idea. If someone could direct me to some sites or publications relating to this issue, it would help me put some "holes" in this plan.

Remind them that they would be relying totally on a system out of their control for their personal safety. I know from experience down here that when a nextel site goes offline it doesn't normally come back up in 20 minutes. They have to send a tech out and if this is at 3AM during a disaster I can guarantee that the tech is going to take care of his own stuff before the nextel network. The techs aren't hired on as emergency workers, most that I have met barely like to work past 5PM as it is.

The only time I have dealt with an APCO rep. is when we applied for the license for our 500Mhz. narrowband repeater. This serves as a backup to our county system, which has failed numerous times.

Get in touch with him. He should be able to help you with this. Good luck!!

[nmfire10]

I'd figure I would ask the experts on this:

My question is: How many subscribers can one Nextel site handle?


Reasoning: We are developing a plan for a response in case of a terrorist strike, or something of a large magnitude for our town.

The current idea is have all the municipal people/fire/police/ems use their Nextel's for interopability.

Well, chock up another one to bull$hit marketing. Sigh.

[KG6EAQ]

Have you guys seen the ad that nextel has for public safety people? It makes me sick. If I can find it I'll scan it in. Also has anyone seen the new SWAT campaign they have? I have yet to have "split-second" direct connect. It normally takes around 5-10 seconds to kick in.

[KG6EAQ]

Here is pretty much the text of the ad:
http://www.nextel.com/about/enterprise/ ... fety.shtml

I wish I could find the full color ad though it has a bit more lies on it.

[Josh]

Your town sure is stupid. Although I'm sure a plan not too different would be in effect here as "Nextel fever" has passed through already, although it's the stupid cops individually who have to purchase phones and service.

I guess today (Thursday) is the day when Verizon is supposed to unveil their walkie-talkie service, and while it's off-topic to the original message, it'll certainly put some of the hot-air back in Nextel's mouth when they start losing business as they're are a monopoly no more.

Apparently it'll be "one shot nationwide" too- as in, when 'PTT' gets in-service, it'll be instantly working everywhere- not "in phases"...

-Josh

[OX]

Take the money that the city would appropriate to purchasing nextel equipment and put it towards updating and upgrading your current systems. Get everybody on one band and if there are several agencies, get them together and put up a trunking system to share amongst everyone. Your interop problem is solved!

I believe there are ways to request funding for communications upgrades through the DHS. I'm sure that John (K4WTF) can provide you with some contact information. There are several agencies here in Ohio and Indiana that are using these grants to upgrade to P25.

[n9upc]

I think that if you are using it as another form of non-vital comms during an emergency it is a great ideal. Let us not forget it will also depend on how the fleets are determined in priority. Example if fleet # 6 is all the cops, ems, firefighters (which nextel does do this) then it will put them as a high priority then every one else.

Sometimes nextel comes in and wines and dines a customer and has them "understand" that, "nextel is the solution as it is already in the 800 Mhz band and it is already digital. Why upgrade there good system when the nextel is like all the other digital systems out there." I have heard Nextel salesmen say this to city/county agencies that feel that they should have radios but they do not have them. So then they get a Nextel and praise it as the best radio cause the local system can not go as far as Nextel.

It is all scare tactics. Now as for system capacity on towers:

A Nextel tower reaches more then 1 mile, at least over here in Western WI, and part of MN. With numerious good friends who are nextel techs they have shown me that a nextel tower tries to cover at least aradius of approx. 5 miles. Nextel use to use 3 omni's here but are now moving towards some panel antennas in order to send signals in a more directional fashion.

Now they are suppose to be using a 6:1 vocoder format which I have not been able to confirm or deny in any way shape or form. But being that there system is iDen which has a swirl of TDMA in it, you tend to have a lot of repeater sites and not a true site.

On a rule of thumb I was told when I had asked the question of system capacity is that a true site (not a repeater) will tend to be able to handle 20 conversations, or about 40 users. It is hard to gauage though as some users can be on tower 1 and traveling down the road, and then boom they are on tower 51, then on tower 16 all within about 2 minutes. So it is very hard to gauge system capacity.

As for direct connect make sure your non-SIM phone has been upgraded with the new flash for the nationwide. (They will do it but you have to push so darn hard), and check your SIM phone if it was made before March of 2002 it may have to be flashed also.

The new i95cl, i99cl, current i90c, i60, i58, i88, and i35 should have the new flash in it and will connect quickly. I two-way with my mom in Chicago as it is cheaper for us to do that then call LD al the time and we have an instant connect. I do find that when you try coming back to the person from another market right away and the system forces you to ue another channel you get the usual boop.......chirp, but if you wait about a second and then key-up again it goes through right away.

[xmo]

"...I think that if you are using it as another form of non-vital comms during an emergency it is a great ideal..."
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This is a good point - there is nothing wrong with using shared systems as part of your connectivity - as long as it isn't the primary part.

There is a great interest in interoperability at this time. The FEDs are actively promoting it. Look up PSWN and AGILE. I don't think you will find Nextel as one of their recommended solutions.

Another point to consider. There is a LOT of grant money being funneled to locals through the Office of Domestic Preparedness [ODP]. It is likely that your people will be submitting applications for some of that money.

Interoperable communications is one of the key items the ODP grants are intended to address. The current FY2003 ODP grant guidance says: "in an effort to realize improved interoperability, all radios purchased under this grant should be APCO 25 compliant"

They are still working on the wording for the FY2004 grants but we have been told that by the FY2005 grants - that wording will be changed from "should be APCO 25 compliant" to "must be APCO 25 compliant"

[Quadrasound]

"...I think that if you are using it as another form of non-vital comms during an emergency it is a great ideal..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a good point - there is nothing wrong with using shared systems as part of your connectivity - as long as it isn't the primary part.

There is a great interest in interoperability at this time. The FEDs are actively promoting it. Look up PSWN and AGILE. I don't think you will find Nextel as one of their recommended solutions.

Another point to consider. There is a LOT of grant money being funneled to locals through the Office of Domestic Preparedness [ODP]. It is likely that your people will be submitting applications for some of that money.

Interoperable communications is one of the key items the ODP grants are intended to address. The current FY2003 ODP grant guidance says: "in an effort to realize improved interoperability, all radios purchased under this grant should be APCO 25 compliant"

They are still working on the wording for the FY2004 grants but we have been told that by the FY2005 grants - that wording will be changed from "should be APCO 25 compliant" to "must be APCO 25 compliant"

Thanks for all the input! I'll be calling APCO in 5 minutes!!
Chuck
N3MER

[kmoose]

You guys ROCK!! I have no interest in Nextel, but I still learned some stuff, just from reading this thread!

[n5tbu]

During an emergency don't count on anybodys system,except your own system.
Here in louisiana,the last hurricane knocked out landlines,cellphones,nextels,electricity,towers,etc
We were without for days to weeks.
Mark

[xmo]

"During an emergency don't count on anybodys system,except your own system. Here in louisiana,the last hurricane knocked out landlines,cellphones,nextels,electricity,towers,etc "
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Exactly!

It's happening again right at this minute with the big northeast power outage.

Somebody was just interviewed on CNN and said that the cellphones are being swamped with everybody calling each other to talk about it!

[nmfire10]

I was just about to say the same thing. As soon as the power grid here went belly up, everyone I know whipped out their Save The World super-duper NexTel and-------- it didn't work. It's unfortunate but this is the proof I have been waiting for.

[Josh]

I was just about to say the same thing. As soon as the power grid here went belly up, everyone I know whipped out their Save The World super-duper NexTel and-------- it didn't work. It's unfortunate but this is the proof I have been waiting for.

I agree with that!

As I sit here now without any power (except for this laptop) and with an operating phone service (and NetZero--- definitly not my cable modem)..

My mom's T-Mobile phone has no service whatsoever, oddly, my i1000 (with no service, thank God) gets a signal, possibly a backup generator.

At any rate, the 'Downriver Mutual Aid' 800Mhz ASTRO system is performing flawlessly, which is good. A lot of the idiot cops with Nextels are finding them to be worthless.

Well, I'd better keep this short---I need to conservce battery power!

-Josh

[mikerabbit]

Dont rely on nextel in an emergency.
Example NYC suberbs in recent blackout. I have had nextel for 3 years and have had no major problems with it so im not a nextel basher, but when we had the blackout on Thursday the nextels were very unreliable both PTT and phone. Our PD system was going with out a hitch and all the municiple radio techs were in maintaing our system. I dont think you could rely on nextel for that kind of tech support.
Mike

[Cowthief]

Hello.

NextHell is not offering the standard iDEN radio to public service.
The Advanced Feature Phone, like the current 750, can do isolated tower, as well as half duplex and simplex, but at 1 watt.
The southernLINC program is more robust, as the radios are also set up with an analog fallback, something NextHell is not doing.
https://idenonline.motorola.com/intl/Pr ... us_ENG.pdf
Is the link for the "standard" non-AFP model.

[Pj]

If you are looking for inter/intra agency communications, buy some inexpensive (or expensive) 800MHz radio's and utilize the ICALL/ITAC channels. Chances are your local/county/state government may already have repeaters for this nationwide emergency freq's. Its not just for cops, but everyone involved in public safety.

[xmo]

Is this Batboard great or what?

You as a question and right away - you get a full scale event to answer it conclusively!

[Jim202]

As many have learned during this North East power outage, you can't count on most cell phone systems to stay operational. As we are bashing Nexthell here, I can point out that very few of their sites have backup generator power. They do have batteries, but that will only last for a limited number of hours.

Here in the New Orleans area, there are not many cell cariers with generators at their cell sites. Verizon has a commitment to place emergency power at all of their sites in the Gulf area. Can't vouch for the rest of the country. They have also anounced that PUSH TO TALK service will be available as of August 18.

As for generators at Nexthell sites, some of them have backup and many don't. If I was part of the public safety planning, I sure wouldn't put my money in anything I couldn't control.

We had a tornado go through town here about 6 years ago. Power was out in parts of the town for over a week. You couldn't make a cell phone call to save yourself. Everyone got on their phones and just overloaded the systems for almost a full 24 hours. All the carriers had to bring in trailer mounted generators to bring back up all the sites that were without power.

Problem with having to bring in generators, is that you have to be able to get there. After a storm many of the roads are blocked or flooded. If the generator wasn't there to begin with, you may have to do without it for a couple of days.

Next issue is to have a fuel supply that will last for at least a 72 hour run time. It may take that long to be able to get back to the generator to be able to service it. You need the generator running and not having to devote man power every 4 to 6 hours to refill the fuel tank. Just where do you think your going to obtain fuel from in the first 24 hours.

Jim

[MarkHam2B]

Unfortunately here in Gotham, many of the public safety officials do NOT have the AFU r750 plus. Come to think of it, I have not seen one person "on the job" with anything other than i1000's, i60's, i90's and i550/700's. Having toyed around with the RSS for these units, I know you can enable ISO for the i700 and "r" units only. Curiously, when I show up with my r750, everyone thinks I have some sort of special "hook" at Nextel to get that unit.

Consider the situation of the recent power outage. The radio system of the Police Department was intermittently out of service. Not knowing the official reason as to why, I would venture to guess that the generators at the various repeater sites needed to be refuelled. When the divisions were non functioning, one could immediately switch to either a simplex TAC channel, or divisons were combined.

The lesson here is that relying on a commercial communications infrastructure will jeopardize the safety of responders and citizens. A good part of New York City was without power for over 24 hours. My personal nextel was useless for a good majority of those hours. Many of the units issued to the department that I observed were equally as useful. Yet, given the speed with which power was cut off, within a reasonable amount of time, the system that was designed and maintained by public safety was operational.

-Remember the Twin Towers 09-11-2001

[kmoose]

so xmo? I was wondering..........if a bunch of perpetually horny, half naked, incredibly hot nymphomaniacs showed up at my door, would it be better to have Nextel, or one of them dag-blasted picture phones? (Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that they brought whiskey and Viagra with them) *sits back and waits for the "event"*