Does anyone know if the current generation of Motorola ASTRO P and M radios that support P25 Phase I will "handle" Phase II APCO that requires a 6.25 KHz bandwidth (e.g., FLASH upgrade), or will this require all new hardware?
What about when APCO goes from the current FDMA mode to the TDMA mode?
Larry
P.S. Not that FLASH upgrading is cheap! For instance, to upgrade each one of my XTS 3000s and ASTRO Spectras from their current configurations of ASTRO Ready and DES SECURENET to IMBE Operational and AES: $379 Flat Labor for the Depot (includes current Host/DSP software), plus $1200 for AES board, plus $900 for IMBE FLASH = just under $2,900 per radio (including Tax, Shipping and Replacement Insurance). Yes, it's a lot less than about $6.5k each for new radios (list price as I don't have a Gov't Pricing discount, etc.). Next time I will get the options enabled at the time of purchase. I knew that IMBE would eventually be necessary and DES-OFB, but I had no way to predict the rapid necessity for AES in competing for Fed Gov't contracts, so I don't feel completely bad about my crystal ball record. A good friend of mine is laughing---he told me a long while ago that the reality of a major upgrade (which is what I'm facing) should be budgeted at one-half the cost of a new radio, which is exactly on target. The problem is that it makes it tough to throw 'em away, since it will cost me double the upgrade cost to go that route. Icom, why can't you guys see this and help?!
ASTRO and 6.25 KHz mode
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ASTROMODAT
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Why not have the local shop do it? When a flashupgrade requires a higher host/dsp, the flashupgrade will upgrade them to the requried revision. Also, 900 is a bit steep from "Astro ready" to IMBE. We are getting ours done for around 650 each...
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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ASTROMODAT
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I just don't trust the local shops to flawlessly unbutton and re-assemble these radios, especially in connection with the new AES board. It's a bit tricky. If you don't work on the XTS portables day-in and day-out, you are almost assured to break some of the tabs, etc. The replacement of the DES board with the new UCM encryption module (has DES-OFB and AES) is a bit like open heart surgery---simple if you have done it 1,000s of times, but not so simple for the local shops that have never/rarely done this. Some of the Fed shops are pretty good since they service their ASTROs every day. The typical M shops for the general public have usually not even seen a radio of this sophistication (they typically work on the Pro series, old Maxtracs, and the like). Also, since the radios will need to be re-aligned with the Host/DSP upgrade, I sure don't trust the local shop to have the proper test equipment, properly aligned, nor to have all of the specialty tools that the service depot has. In the end, I also seriously doubt that the local shop would be much less than the $375.
Check 2003 M pricing---it didn't go down.
Larry
Check 2003 M pricing---it didn't go down.
Larry
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Astro_Saber
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I don't know about the shops in your area, but most larger/regional shops should be dealing with the high end equipment fairly often. Smaller shops that do not deal with the high tier equipment wouldn't be dealing with any of this anyways.
Even if they do break something, it would be replaced a new part.
Other than that, if you feel as though the shop you are dealing with is low quaility, shop around. I would rather drive a few extra minutes or UPS overnight the stuff a little farther then pay thousands of $$$$ more to the depot. Even then they screw up, trust me. My radio had to go there twice...they screwed something up the first time there...
Even if they do break something, it would be replaced a new part.
Other than that, if you feel as though the shop you are dealing with is low quaility, shop around. I would rather drive a few extra minutes or UPS overnight the stuff a little farther then pay thousands of $$$$ more to the depot. Even then they screw up, trust me. My radio had to go there twice...they screwed something up the first time there...
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
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ASTROMODAT
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We have radios that cost $6,500 new, plus we are looking at an additional $2900 per radio for needed upgrades. So, we have radios with a $9400 investment (Yes, next time we will do our upgrades at the get-go, not later! Ouch!). Is it worth trying to potentially save maybe $50 or $100 (at most) out of $9400, and put these radios into the hands of a local outfit?
Compare the test equipment in the large local shop to the gear at the M depot. I have done this. Have you visited and been given the Grand Tour of the M depot? They have state of the art, and current and properly calibrated and aligned test equipment with written/tagged NIST certifications, worth virtually millions of dollars. Even a large M shop can't possibly afford this investment. It's like a small local hospital trying to have state of the art MRI units in service---they simply don't have the patient dollars and volumes to afford it, nor to keep this equipment upgraded to the most recent state of the art.
Likewise, check out the Tecs in the M depot. Typically, these guys have opened up literally thousands of XTS radios. The guys in the large local shops have not done even a fraction of this. Been there, done that, and I won't try to save less than 1% when you compare the infrastructures and the experience levels of the Tecs with the specific radios we are talking about.
As far as going back and asking the local shop to repair the various parts that they broke (like the tiny aluminum tabs on the critical circuits), we are talking about dozens of small aluminum tabs that you won't even know are broken. But, you also may accept the crummy sensitivity as normal, not realizing the various little problems are due to busted clips on the VCO cover that cause the unit to not perform at its optimum best. Some of these issues are insidious, so I need to rely on folks that open these things up 8 hours a day, and do this exclusively, not thinning their expertise against a bunch of different radios, like the guys in the local shops.
Does the local M shop (even a big one) have literally ROWS of many multi-million dollar, HP 9 foot high racks of gear with highly customized M software that puts the radio completely through its paces to align it, and then check it, from 403 to 470 MHz? Do they have custom jiggs that properly remove, and re-insert, these multitudes of aluminium clips? No, at BEST they have an R2670, and a few other pieces of test gear, that are child's play in comparison to what is at the depot. It's not necessarily a bad thing to let scale help you. No offense intended for the various Mom and Pop local repair shops (and even a supposedly "Big" local shop is of a Mom & Pop scale compared to the Motorola sertvice depot), they just can't afford to invest in this quality of test equipment when the depot probably services more than 3 orders of magnitude more radios than they possibly can. The local shops were fine in the days of the battle tank analog Micors, but no more.
I suspect that in the not too distant future, only the M depot will have the specialized tools, multi millions of dollars of specialized test equipment, and the specialized training, etc. to properly service these radios. For instance, check out the new Motorola Universal Crypto Module (UCM) that now replaces a dozen or so previous ASTRO encryption modules. Try to order the Maintenance manual (68P80801G90). You will be surprised to learn that ONLY the M depot is allowed to have this UCM Service manual. You will NOT be allowed to order it. Try it and let me know.
Just my 2 cent opinions,
Larry
P.S. If you can sweet talk the Big M to let you order the UCM Service manual, PLEASE let me know. We have been told not only No, but...
Compare the test equipment in the large local shop to the gear at the M depot. I have done this. Have you visited and been given the Grand Tour of the M depot? They have state of the art, and current and properly calibrated and aligned test equipment with written/tagged NIST certifications, worth virtually millions of dollars. Even a large M shop can't possibly afford this investment. It's like a small local hospital trying to have state of the art MRI units in service---they simply don't have the patient dollars and volumes to afford it, nor to keep this equipment upgraded to the most recent state of the art.
Likewise, check out the Tecs in the M depot. Typically, these guys have opened up literally thousands of XTS radios. The guys in the large local shops have not done even a fraction of this. Been there, done that, and I won't try to save less than 1% when you compare the infrastructures and the experience levels of the Tecs with the specific radios we are talking about.
As far as going back and asking the local shop to repair the various parts that they broke (like the tiny aluminum tabs on the critical circuits), we are talking about dozens of small aluminum tabs that you won't even know are broken. But, you also may accept the crummy sensitivity as normal, not realizing the various little problems are due to busted clips on the VCO cover that cause the unit to not perform at its optimum best. Some of these issues are insidious, so I need to rely on folks that open these things up 8 hours a day, and do this exclusively, not thinning their expertise against a bunch of different radios, like the guys in the local shops.
Does the local M shop (even a big one) have literally ROWS of many multi-million dollar, HP 9 foot high racks of gear with highly customized M software that puts the radio completely through its paces to align it, and then check it, from 403 to 470 MHz? Do they have custom jiggs that properly remove, and re-insert, these multitudes of aluminium clips? No, at BEST they have an R2670, and a few other pieces of test gear, that are child's play in comparison to what is at the depot. It's not necessarily a bad thing to let scale help you. No offense intended for the various Mom and Pop local repair shops (and even a supposedly "Big" local shop is of a Mom & Pop scale compared to the Motorola sertvice depot), they just can't afford to invest in this quality of test equipment when the depot probably services more than 3 orders of magnitude more radios than they possibly can. The local shops were fine in the days of the battle tank analog Micors, but no more.
I suspect that in the not too distant future, only the M depot will have the specialized tools, multi millions of dollars of specialized test equipment, and the specialized training, etc. to properly service these radios. For instance, check out the new Motorola Universal Crypto Module (UCM) that now replaces a dozen or so previous ASTRO encryption modules. Try to order the Maintenance manual (68P80801G90). You will be surprised to learn that ONLY the M depot is allowed to have this UCM Service manual. You will NOT be allowed to order it. Try it and let me know.
Just my 2 cent opinions,
Larry
P.S. If you can sweet talk the Big M to let you order the UCM Service manual, PLEASE let me know. We have been told not only No, but...
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ASTROMODAT
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The UCM is the new ASTRO encryption module (Universal Crypto Module) introduced in November, 2002 that essentially replaces ALL previous ASTRO encryption modules (even in the case of the DIU 3000 encryption cartridge application). I believe the physical packaging slightly varies by radio type, but the software and encryption modes are all inclusive. There are therefore different part numbers for different applications, but the performance and modes are the same, depending upon how much money you have to fill up the firmware with whatever number of modes, depending also on how many modes your radio supports. The CPS lets you set the UCM to be DES-OFB, Other Flavors and, of course, the new, uncrackable AES. Costs vary as to how many modes the firmware includes when you order it (the more, the pricier and you can't upgrade it later so get 'em at the time of order). Depending on how much money you want to lay down, the UCM can accomodate all of the standard encryption modes, plus the new 256 bit Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) that most of the 3 digit Fed Agencies are now converting to. Yes, it requires the latest Host/DSP software to run, and Yes, it requires a mandatory codeplug uplift because the other modules have been discontinued (who said it doesn't pay to upgrade your Host/DSP software to the latest and greatest?) I guess thius will hammer ASTRO DOS users to have to go to CPS if they need to change out their encryption modules for some reason, like repair or a different mode. Kudoes to the Big M Marketing Wizzards. Also, the AES application requires the KVL 3000, as the T3011DX won't cut it, unless you stay with one of the older 56 bit schemes. Motorola has a PDF document (Nov 2002) covering the UCM and the ASTRO XTS and ASTRO Spectra applications in great detail. As I noted in my earlier post, you can get the UCM Owners/Operators manual (I have them), but they do NOT allow you to have the Maintenance manual (only the Depot can get this, as I talked to the Supervisor at Parts ID, and other M folks, when my order for this manual was rejected). I first came across this when I saw all the Intents To Cancel in the current R3 (Nov 2002) for the DIU 3000.
Larry
Larry
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ASTROMODAT
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I downloaded it off the Internet based on a Yahoo search for UCM. I think I saved it, so I'll post it if I can find it. There is a great deal in the literature on the UCM board, especially because of the AES aspect. Also, the Motorola PDF is really good and very detailed, and it includes nice clear color photos of the UCM boards for the XTS and the ASTRO Specrtra (different boards).
Larry
Larry
The worst part is who is ultimately paying for it, ALL OF US!!! when the govt. keeps putting up with this marketing crap. So what are they going to do when they finally push everything to narrow band digital? Sell off all that opened up bandwidth to Nextel I suppose.
I suppose I am just cynical but it really does seem ridiculous and down right outrageous that they are buying radios at 10,000 a pop! and they worried about Microsoft having a monopoly. I just don't see how this gets accepted year after year.
mancow
I suppose I am just cynical but it really does seem ridiculous and down right outrageous that they are buying radios at 10,000 a pop! and they worried about Microsoft having a monopoly. I just don't see how this gets accepted year after year.
mancow
That's why the gvmt is moving to APCO25
The whole reason the government is moving to APCO-25 is that APCO-25 is a standard that everybody can design to - Racal/Thales, E.F. Johnson, Icom, Kenwood, IFR - everybody.
The only problem will be moving away from Smartnet control channel (3.6 kBaud) to APCO-25 control channel (4.8 kBaud), and from DVB and such to DES/TripleDES/AES.
There are alternatives out there to Motorola in the radio market, and to General Dynamics in the test market.
Of course, you have to guarantee interoperability, but that's why you need good radio test equipment - and I can hardly complain about that need!
The only problem will be moving away from Smartnet control channel (3.6 kBaud) to APCO-25 control channel (4.8 kBaud), and from DVB and such to DES/TripleDES/AES.
There are alternatives out there to Motorola in the radio market, and to General Dynamics in the test market.
Of course, you have to guarantee interoperability, but that's why you need good radio test equipment - and I can hardly complain about that need!
This is my opinion, not Aeroflex's.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.
I WILL NOT give you proprietary information. I make too much money to jeopardize my job.
I AM NOT the Service department: You want official info, manuals, service info, parts, calibration, etc., contact Aeroflex directly, please.