02 Expedition where to tap power?

kens · Post by **kens** » Tue May 13, 2003 7:44 pm

I just saw an installation on a 02 Expedition and the power for radios and lightbar was tapped at the starter solenoid. I told the installer it appeared that there was a fusible link between the battery and solenoid and if that was the case, it would be better to go direct to the battery post connection. I think there are other Ford vehicles that also use this arrangement or am I incorrect?

jim · Post by **jim** » Wed May 14, 2003 5:49 am

If the '02 is the same as the '03, you can safely pull about 80 amps from the #2 power feed located in the right lower a-post kick panel area. The cable is on the firewall side of the electrical center. Although it's a #2 cable, remember that the OEM systems will use much of it's capability.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Wed May 14, 2003 5:16 pm

That is the worst mistake anyone could ever do in a vehicle install...Always avoid tapping into a vehicles high current system whenever possible....Why anyone would want to chance their installed equipment failure or even damaging the vehicle components is beyond comprehension....Go directly to the battery with solid connections and a buss circuit breaker or fuse...Use gold or anaodized post extender on the battery and heavy duty connections....Figure out your imposed load of accessories and properly gauge your wire, If you are doing a full vehicle setup icluding a light bar (espicially halogen rotator style), radios, siren, etc then use 4 gauge cable and place a fused distrubution center inside the vehicle. For your low current hot and ignition leads the OEM fuse panel is okay, if you use a quality add-a-circuit style fused tap (low curent stuff only) like for radio ignition lead or backlight....Just my two cents, I have seen alot of crappy installs, and most of them start when the installer taps the main power from an OEM source, i.e. starter relay.

P.S-It is a FORD vehicle, most of them have trouble working properly even without any aftermarket equipment installed....*I am a chevy fan, had to add that little tibit....)

Good Luck..

jim · Post by **jim** » Thu May 15, 2003 9:12 am

Your not going to risk a darn thing tapping into this point on the Expedition.

Connecting to the battery terminal is an amateur and unprofessional installation and will lead to failure. Did you ever see a fire truck, ambulance or limosine manufacturer tap into a battery? NOPE! Because they know that their connection will corrode in no time. If you are that parnoid about OEM system damage, install a junction stud near the battery for your aftermarket AND OEM cables to run to, but whatever you do....DON'T GO TO THE BATTERY!

What you describe is common practice at car stereo shops and cause more problems than one can imagine. I like when feeds go to the battery during car stereo installs and 2-way installs from "authorized Motorola dealers" since they make me alot of $$$ a half year down the road!

Oh...and read up on your SAE specs too if you do vehicle installs!
Piggybacking a battery terminal certainly isn't in there.

USGOVTECH · Post by **USGOVTECH** » Thu May 15, 2003 12:30 pm

I agree with Rob Bambino. In the many many years that I have been in business I have always hooked up directly to the battery with the fuse located near the battery, I have seen very few failures while being hooked up to the battery and the very few that I have observed were caused by careless shop mechanics and or people who think that they are an installer. I have seen much more failures by people hooking up to the high current lines and fuse panels, which in my opinion is a lazy, simple and unprofessional installation. I have corrected many faulty wiring problems due to bastardized installations. Keep on installing the radios the way you choose and mabie someday I will have to fix a problem caused by your shop.

fire-medic8104 · Post by **fire-medic8104** » Thu May 15, 2003 3:09 pm

Our shop routinely taps the constant side of the solenoid. We try to never go to the battery, because as Jim said, corrosion will kill you in no time. Honestly, how many of your customers (especially commerical customers) who check their battery posts for corrosion?

I have also tapped the #2 power feed in the kick panel with no problems.

Jim is correct in that you won't see major manufacturers tap a battery just for that reason.

We have government syntors running of the starter solenoid and power distribution feeds (on certain vehicles) that are now being removed after 3-4 yrs that have never had problems with power.

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 15, 2003 3:57 pm

Don't run all your cables to the battery. There are a host of good reasons:

1. Corrosion will kill you, especially where there is salted roads
2. It's a rats nest that is hard to keep neat
3. Everything you run there has to be removed every few years when the battery gets changed.

In the Crown Vic and Impala, there is a underhood distribution box on the right fender that is the best place to tap for power. In my Impala, I ran a redundant B+ cable from the Alternator to one of the distribution panel studs, then fed my 100A TSD circuit breaker from that same stud. In effect, this relieves the factory wiring of the add-on current created by the radios/lights.

No battery post mount has ever been designed well enough to use for any serious installation.

jim · Post by **jim** » Thu May 15, 2003 7:34 pm

"mabie" ???

Um.....like I said.....

If the "battery method" is so correct, then why isn't it SAE recognized but the correct way is? I guess that all of these engineers are wrong and you are right. Pierce, Sutphen, AEV, Wheeled Coach, McCoy Miller, Braun, KME, Seagrave, Mack Freightliner, GM, Ford, Chrysler are also all wrong and YOU are right. If these big companies only had your knowledge and engineering skills, they might be able to build an electrical system that is professional and lasts for many years. Anyone that knows anything at all about vehiclular electrical systems will agree with me 100% on this subject.

Stick to the high school vo-tech quality installs and I'll keep rollin' in the $$$ on ones whom think this is right.

cranbiz · Post by **cranbiz** » Fri May 16, 2003 4:21 am

I try to stay out of arguements like this, but I gotta agree with Jim.

More times than not, I have repaired installs that went directly to the battery. (Due to corrosion, etc.)

Add a high power tap and use it.

GM has a high power tap off the battery cable in the new pickups that is designed for this.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Fri May 16, 2003 9:31 am

Okay.....I am not going to brag but I have respectively done over 500 emergency vehicle wiring light/radio installs for many different comapnies over the last seven years or so.....You guys are dead wrong.....Yes jim, read your aftermarket instructions,,,it says always connect to the battery...And ABSOLUTELY, if the terminal is connected correctly with the right hardware and skill there will be no corrosion. Like I said in a full emergency vehicle install I alwyas run a 4 gauage cable to a interior distrubition panel from the battery....That means there is only one connection at the positive side of the battery, and that gets replaced with a corrision resistant professional piggy back terminal with nut and bolt hardware.......Sorry to inform you guys, but that is the only way to do it, if it is done right....I will send pics of my vehicle to anyone who wants to see how it is done....Thanks, Rob

jim · Post by **jim** » Fri May 16, 2003 11:27 am

As always, you are correct and everyone else is wrong. Did you ever think that they say this because they don't want you to have an inadequete power supply? By stating to use direct battery, they can assure their product will get good current and function properly.
Then again, you obviously have no vehicle electrical experience other than "hanging equipment." Do you have any auto electric skills other than OEM equipment hanging? If not, who quailifies you to even say this? Did you ever diagnose an OEM electrical system or even know about the vehicle's OEM wiring (not add-on wiring) ?
There's alot of people that hang equipment and have absolutely no clue about the inner workings of he OEM electrical system, let alone SAE specs. Speaking of SAE specs, just pray one of your "correctly built" vehicles with battery-fed equipment never burns up, because the insurance company is going to have your shop or your employer for lunch since you did a non-SAE installation with more than likey non-SAE components. Welding cable, auto-reset breakers, tape, and many brands wire are not accepted.

If you follow the equipment manufacturer, the Expedition I just shipped would have had 13 wires going to the battery terminal!

Next time you go into a new fire engine or ambulance, look at where the Whelen/Federal/Code 3 siren is connect. I know that on a $370,000 fire engine that the manufacturer will run a single piece of wire to the battery for the siren (yeah, right!) because Whelen or Code 3 said so.

I also can tell you that if your siren or other equipment fails on a new McCoy Miller ambulance, the manufacturer of that equipment will void the warranty because it was installed properly to the junction block and not a single piece of wire to the battery (um....right...sure!) like you say.

You are obviously another vo-tech installer that wouldn't make it in a professional shop. 500 vehicles doesn't mean a darn thing. There is a shop about 4 miles from me that does 200-250 per year and it's the biggest hack job in the world. Volume means nothing. Until your work looks like it came FROM THE FACTORY and uses OEM quality components, it's probably a hack job. If you open the hood and see aftermarket wiring right away, you can bet it's an amateur job.

Grease or seal your terminals all you want- they WILL corrode. I see it all of the time on trucks with snow plows and also on many police cars. Corrosion starts from the lead/plastic seam and will wick right through the outer pores of the lead terminals- especially on Delco and Exide built batteries (which are total junk).

Keep on installing like this and all I can say is "CHA-CHING $$$" in my pocket!

Maybe you should be the lead electrical engineer for Pierce or Euclid. With your engineering skills, they should beat your door down and offer you over $200K per year.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Fri May 16, 2003 12:09 pm

Jim, I am sorry but YOU HAVE NO CLUE.....The original conversation was about an install on a ford explorer SUV, you have just BABBLED two paragraphs about ambulances and fire engines.....My answer to the question was not in the relm of a engine or ambulance (which of course would have been different). And yes, I have been doing this for many years, with many training courses by emergency lighting manufacturers and EVT's (and two years of college EET under my belt). I just don't Hang Equipment or incorrectly wire vehicles...And yes, I have diagnosed many "OEM" vehicle wiring systems that cracker jack installers have damaged by HACKS TAPPING INTO OEM VEHICLE WIRING IN A INCORRECT MANOR. My response to the original question was not attacking or detracting from anyones info, simply conveying the PROPER technique for aftermarket installation. You my friend need to read, and understand the fundamentals of aftermarket wiring and installations because I personally would never bring a vehicle to your shop 1) because of your attitude and 2) because of your lack of experience and inabiltiy to comprehend the fact that corrision and MOST IMPORTANTLY A HIGHER RISK OF MALFUNCTIONS too can happen on a starter selenoid if HIGH current is flowing through it and aftermarket accessories attached. It is just plain LAZY to connect to this point. It was originally designed to SAFELY handle the maximum imposed load of the vehicle, not some lazy installers 40amp light bar and dual 100 wat siren and 100 watt lowband maratrac all at the sime time the A/C and power windows were being used....Doesn't that make sense????????

P.S. My vehicle never have any problems because it is protected by a high quality resetable circuit breaker and a interior distrubution panel within the vehicle providing fuse protection for each brach circuit attached thereto.. One simple wire to the battery immediately connected to a circuit breaker, which then inturn feeds the main distribution panel within the interior of the vehicle.

Sorry to be blunt, but there was no reason to respond in that fashion.

Just my 2cents.......

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Fri May 16, 2003 12:16 pm

Additionally, I agree with you about installs in ambualces for example. No I have never seen any equipment run of the battery...BUT-the manufacturers spend alot of time and money (professional engineers) to design the accesspory power circuits for these vehicles. We agree.....But in a radio/light shop atmosphere where we use our skill and imagination (no real engineering) it is the safe and recommended method....Later tonight I will snap some pictures and attach them to a later post in my 2001 Yukon (with no corrosion) on my battery.

fire-medic8104 · Post by **fire-medic8104** » Fri May 16, 2003 3:29 pm

Back to the original question, yes it would be acceptable to tap the starter solenoid for power. The fusible link is in line but will not be a problem. I have done this plenty of times and have seen numerous other shops do this.

Question, how much stuff is going into this expedition? Then you would be able to tell how much current you will draw.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Fri May 16, 2003 4:51 pm

http://firemarshal.freecyberzone.com

Here is a link to a real quick, cheezy web page I made.....Please excuse the messy truck, we have had horrible weather and no time to clean [/url]

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat May 17, 2003 7:25 am

The bottom line is that on an 02 Expedition, there is safely room to pull about 80A from the service panel #2 feed. Using the starter solenoid will work fine. Remember- this lead is usually used only when starting the engine (most vehicles) and is a large feed that can be used for accessories - AND IT IS NOT GOING TO CORRODE LIKE THE BATTERY!
Yes, this is an accepted method used my many OEM manufacturers, including Ford. In most Mopars, there is a 13MM hex nut on one end of the alternator fuse in the electrical center. This is a great place to get 100+ amps safely- and IT WON'T CORRODE.
On GMs, there is usually a "jump start block". Here's where you can safely and reliably get power WITHOUT CORROSION.
If there is any fuse or link in the line you are leaching from, ensure that you have adequete room for your equipment by engaging all OEM electrical devices and do a quickie clamp-on ammeter check on this line to see what's really there before connecting.

If there's nowhere for connection to the system, disconnect the battery positive then cut this cable about 15" or so away from the battery terminal. Crimp and solder on a 3/8" ring terminal on each end of the cut cable and finish with adhesive shrink-tube. Mount a 3/8" insulated junction stud and place both cable ends over it with nut and lock washer. Voila! We now have a nice, reliable and professional junction stud that will give you 300A if needed- AND IT WON'T CORRODE. Now, install your power feed cable (with proper fuse) to the stud using another nut and lockwasher. After final connection of your power cables, cover the exposed stud with a plastic cover or even slip a small piece of rubber vacuum hose over the stud to insulate it.

Rather than using any battery terminal sprays, I always use Permatex "High-Tack" red gasket spray on connections. This spray stays semi-pliable and doesn't harden and crack like most battery or terminal sprays. You can use this on the junction stud if you live in a wet and/or salty environment (like Pittsburgh in the winter). I have never experienced one problem using this spray. All grounds to the body/chassis get a light coating, too.

If you tap in correctly, your install will last a lifetime with no problems whatsoever. The normal method of either a #8, #6 or a #4 (depending on load) fused lead going to a central distribution point inside will also last the life of the vehicle and give you a reliable power point.

Running 4 small wires to the battery terminal will certainly not last the vehicle's lifetime in service.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 17, 2003 10:53 am

Rob, I have learned from past arguments that Jim knows his $hit. I would take anything he says as very experienced and more than likely correct advice.

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Sat May 17, 2003 11:14 am

Matt, I am not doubting his ability to install.....This is a topic that has many different correct answers.....Jim is right, You could hook aftermarket accessories to the starter selenoid, or the "jump or power tap" on a GM suv....And it would probably work for many years w/o a problem.....And probably like jim we have all seen are share of crapy work.....My opinion is that this shoudn't be where a "full blown" emergency vehicle lighting and radio power source should be hooked up to, I have seen and repaired many problems caused by connecting elsewhere...Just an opinion, and I am sure if you asked 50 professional installers you will get varying answers, I am sorry for making it personal,,,This is a great board and is a place to share ideas----Good and bad..This is how we all learn....But there is no reason to make it personal...Sorry for the angry threads..Everyone needs to play nice in the sandbox....Thanks, Rob

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat May 17, 2003 5:25 pm

Can I take off the purple dinosaur suit now since we are all getting along?

007 · Post by **007** » Sat May 17, 2003 5:52 pm

jim wrote:Can I take off the purple dinosaur suit now since we are all getting along?

ROTFLMAO!!!!

FMROB · Post by **FMROB** » Sun May 18, 2003 6:53 am

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy....

kens · Post by **kens** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 9:13 pm

Thanks to eveyone for their valuable input. We settled on using a sealed battery that had both types of terminals. The side post + was used as the main source for power to warning lights and radios.
Thanks again. Batlabs people are the greatest!

KitN1MCC · Post by **KitN1MCC** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:25 pm

I dont ever go off the battery unless. there is not any other way to get power.

The only things that shoould go to batt due to power draw is

Plow Pumps,Dump Body Pumps and othe high current draws. (Motoros)

also i have gone off of the constant power side of a plow solinoid in a pinch. but you have to carfull they are very delicate and dont liek lots of wrenching.

also you ever notice the crappy job that Body building companys do (dumps and such)
no grommets just regular crimps under the bed (no heat up and melt style)and just crap work