LED Opinions....

JAYMZ · Post by **JAYMZ** » Fri May 23, 2003 10:53 am

Yeah here we go again.... more LEDs

I am considering a set of Green LEDs from RIM Industries. Are they bright? Can I use a standard flasher with them? Or am I wasting my time and just buy some strobes and be done with it?

These are for some grille lights FWIW

Jay G. · Post by **Jay G.** » Fri May 23, 2003 1:59 pm

Yes they are bright. I have a pair of the "slimlights" from RIM in the rear of my brothers blazer. Mounted them to the roof rack facing rear and have them flashing with the brake/reverse flasher (traffic backer). Looks AWESOME!!
You can use these or the Mighty lights in the grill. You cant use a thermal flasher, but any other one will work well.

Post by Pj » Fri May 23, 2003 7:35 pm

99% of LED's almost all look the same. We just got the TIR6 LED's from Whelen, and WOW. I didn't think that just 6 LED's could put out so much light, and at such angles too.

As for anything other than red or amber, I think the cheepest green LED's you can find should work well.

JAYMZ · Post by **JAYMZ** » Fri May 23, 2003 7:49 pm

Cool,

Thanx guys. I'll have to look into it a little more prior to the purchase.. mainly due to lack of funds at the moment. I like a nice dependable tried and tested strobe or halogen light... not one for change I suppose. And it's only a part of a grand scheme that I should probably share with my wife... since it is her car I'm doing this to.

Is there anywhere out there cheaper than RIM Industries. So far the best prices I've found but to save a buck or two would be nice.....

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat May 24, 2003 7:28 am

All LEDs are bright- just as long as you are looking directly into them. Go more than 10 degrees from center and they are dim.
911's LEDs seem to have the best peripheral angle of intensity.

In my opinion, LEDs have no place on any emergency vehicle except for an arrowstick, since you are directly in line of sight with it.

Post by Pj » Sat May 24, 2003 10:09 am

I have to say, that the new TIR6 and Linear LED's from Whelen do work pretty well at angles. I know that your not a big Whelen fan, but you do have to check them out. The TIR6's can use a regular 500 series wide angle lens, and it does work pretty well. Our new expidition uses the TIR6 mirror LEDS, two sets of the TIR6 Slimlighers in the rear, one in the front, and 1 pair of 700 series LED's in the front grille. Looks sweet. They pretty much drown out the clear front/rear corner strobes.

Their new Liberty (all LED) bars do an awesome job too. I don't like the Patriot series (Strobe/LED). I did get a peak of their Edge Ultra Freedom LED bar and that rocks. It uses full size Linear LED refectors and not those little ones found on the LFL series bars.

If done right (with the right amount of $$$ invested) I think LED's can make a nice emergency warning package. There have been several all LED police/fire/ambulances showing up around here and they do look sweet.

I still like my strobes and rotators, but I will have LED's in my new bar as well.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 24, 2003 10:28 am

I put the freedom bar in the specs for our new rescue. I believe it actually uses two stacked LFL style linear LED modules in each spot. From what I understand, the original design had one big one but it wasn't quite what they had hoped. Instead it has two of the small linears stacked and it a lot better.

We now have three new cruisers and an F-250 with red/blue fully loaded Liberty Bars and TIR6 mirror beams. We had an MVA the other day with two cruisers on scene. One had a Libery, the other had a Smart Vector (there's an oxymoron). The Liberty was a WHOLE LOT brighter than that vector bar and probably drew less amperage than ONE of the rotator pods.

motorolamonster911 · Post by **motorolamonster911** » Sun May 25, 2003 6:48 am

I seen some LED's from RIMINDUSTRIES.com and they looked GOOD. For the price you pay, you cant beat it! I'm getting ready to put red LED's in my dash and in the deck.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun May 25, 2003 6:01 pm

LEDs belong in digital clocks, calculator displays from the mid-70's, car alarm indicators, volunteer firefighters' vehicles and portable chargers. They certainly have no place on a commercial emergency vehicle.

The new Federal LED lightbar is an effing joke- listing for a mere $5900, one could equip an entire cruiser for this. The Liberty is also a joke. Yes, granted is is really bright when looking directly into it, you need to view one of these POS lightbars from an angle of an approaching intersection- you can't and won't see it. An old Twin Sonic throws more light at deep angles from center and it CAN be seen at an approaching intersection. After all, you use a lighbar to be seen. Why use one that you can only see from straight ahead?
Who cares if it only draws 9 amps? Most modern vehicles have 120+ amp alternators. Most police package cars have 140+ amp alternators now. (Oh, I'm sorry...we must now call them GENERATORS again as per the SAE nazis).

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sun May 25, 2003 6:35 pm

I beg to differ Jim. The Liberty bars on the cruisers are outstanding all around. To even mention the word "Twin-Sonic" in the same page is lunacy. I know you have some deep down hatred for Whelen so I expect you to slam it all the time. Your opinion on the Liberty and LED's in general is in my opinion, off base. I've seen them used on emergency vehicles. I have used them myself on emergency vehicles. If you do it right, they are an awsome PART of a well thought out system.

JAYMZ · Post by **JAYMZ** » Mon May 26, 2003 6:21 am

jim wrote:LEDs belong in digital clocks, calculator displays from the mid-70's, car alarm indicators, volunteer firefighters' vehicles and portable chargers. They certainly have no place on a commercial emergency vehicle.

The new Federal LED lightbar is an effing joke- listing for a mere $5900, one could equip an entire cruiser for this. The Liberty is also a joke. Yes, granted is is really bright when looking directly into it, you need to view one of these POS lightbars from an angle of an approaching intersection- you can't and won't see it. An old Twin Sonic throws more light at deep angles from center and it CAN be seen at an approaching intersection. After all, you use a lighbar to be seen. Why use one that you can only see from straight ahead?
Who cares if it only draws 9 amps? Most modern vehicles have 120+ amp alternators. Most police package cars have 140+ amp alternators now. (Oh, I'm sorry...we must now call them GENERATORS again as per the SAE nazis).

Not to be hyper-critical but.... What does that have to do with a couple of little grille lights? So you can't see them from an angle.. if you don't like them don't buy them. Besides.... a light in the grille doesn't need to be seen from the side....

From the sounds of things though a pair of the grille lights from RIM Industries should work out quite nicely. And all I need is the lights I have a nice solid state flasher to run them.... Now to finance this new project.... any donations anyone?

I take PayPal

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Mon May 26, 2003 7:50 am

jim wrote:LEDs belong in digital clocks, calculator displays from the mid-70's, car alarm indicators, volunteer firefighters' vehicles and portable chargers. They certainly have no place on a commercial emergency vehicle.

The new Federal LED lightbar is an effing joke- listing for a mere $5900, one could equip an entire cruiser for this. The Liberty is also a joke. Yes, granted is is really bright when looking directly into it, you need to view one of these POS lightbars from an angle of an approaching intersection- you can't and won't see it. An old Twin Sonic throws more light at deep angles from center and it CAN be seen at an approaching intersection. After all, you use a lighbar to be seen. Why use one that you can only see from straight ahead?
Who cares if it only draws 9 amps? Most modern vehicles have 120+ amp alternators. Most police package cars have 140+ amp alternators now. (Oh, I'm sorry...we must now call them GENERATORS again as per the SAE nazis).

I don't really care about maximum output of the alternator, at idle, 70 amps is about maximum, how many amps do most loaded up lightbars draw, then and the rest of the equipment running at the same time, computer, radio, strobes, head light flasher, just the vehicle itself plus wipers, AC, blower motors (K9 vehicles), headlights, defroster etc., you can eaisly go above the 70 amp at idle, couple this with a vehicle that may possibley be sitting at a crash for 3-6 hours and the car is running off the alternator and the battery is discharged. A 9 amp draw is a hell of a lot better than a 40-50 amp draw, and yes, that is what a MX7000 draws loaded up.

SG

cranbiz · Post by **cranbiz** » Mon May 26, 2003 12:13 pm

I'm working on a project / experiment now in where I have found a supplier of 4.5" 9 LED circuit boards and thur another supplier an inexpensive supply of various 5mm superbright LED's with decent (30 and 45 degree viewing angles).

I plan on making a six segment light bar (36" long by 1.5" wide and about 1" in depth) with 27 LED's per segment ( 3 boards per segment) setup with 4 red, 2 amber and 2 white segments. I figure that this whole thing will cost about $200.00 including a LED Strobe flasher when done.

If it works like I hope it will, I'll let everyone know how to do it and where to get the stuff.

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue May 27, 2003 6:07 am

I don't hate Whelen- they jsut build many products that plain suck and fail constantly like power supplies, strobe heads and lightbars.

They make great sirens. They also make great hideaway tubes.

They DO make a lousy LED. They DO make a lousy LED lightbar and it's not just them. All LEDs suck- period.

What good would a siren speaker be if you could only hear it in a 10 degree window of centerline of the speaker? It's the same with a light and LEDs are no damn good unless you are within approx. 10 degrees. End of story. Nobody yet has built an LED that is worthy of a COMMERCIAL public safety vehicle. The only one that comes even close is from 911 and not Whelen, Code 3, Federal, Alerte or even Tomar (yes- they have LED now).

Go out to the KME firetruck plant in Nesquehoning Pa. and ask them how many LEDs they had to upgrade to strobes on new apparatus because the customer was very unhappy with them.
When I was there in February, I was told the whole story about this and it's quite a sore subject with them since it's costing them quite a bit of $$$

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue May 27, 2003 8:29 am

Have you actually seen a cruiser with a fully loaded Liberty bar on it? I have, 360 degrees, up close and at a distance. They kick ass, period. I would compliment any cruiser with corner hideaways and mirror beams because of how critical intersection warning is regardless of what it is on the roof.

As for fire trucks... I am not ready to order a fire truck with 100% LED either. Thats why I said it can be part of a well planned SYSTEM utilizing strobes, LEDs, and maybe (thats a big maybe) even halogen.

motorolamonster911 · Post by **motorolamonster911** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:09 pm

A buddy of mine is on a fire dept who has a truck equipped with LED's and it rocks!

In our squads we have a problem with the whelen strobe lightbar always shutting down, so our 30th anniversary truck is going to be 100% LED's. I will get some pics!

--edit--

Also, the Ohio State Highway Patrol went to full LED's too! (they have hideaways in corner lights and tail lights and from a distance the LED's actually drowned out the strobes)

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:43 pm

motorolamonster911 wrote:In our squads we have a problem with the whelen strobe lightbar always shutting down, so our 30th anniversary truck is going to be 100% LED's. I will get some pics!

Well, how old was it and did anyone try to see what was wrong with it?

motorolamonster911 · Post by **motorolamonster911** » Tue May 27, 2003 1:09 pm

We are not quite sure what the problem is. It happens on most of our squads. One minute they will work, the next they wont. And you know Whelen just wants you to replace it all.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue May 27, 2003 2:03 pm

Well, if all of them are doing this, then someone needs to take a look at them. I'd be willing to bet that whatever it is will be really obvious and common on all of them. Most problems like this that I have seen are improper installation or little to no preventative maintinence.

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue May 27, 2003 2:55 pm

I have seen several cruisers (and the factory demo car) with the Liberty on it and I am not impressed- at all. The 15 year old MX7000 is three times the lightbar as what the Liberty is. The Code 360 with Halogen D-Techs, strobe and LED combo is better yet and it's still cheaper. Wait 'til your LED clusters start failing.

You think that strobes were alot of money? When you lose a row of 8 LEDs in the cluster and have to replace the entire cluster, get out the Vaseline...especially if it's a blue one! After it's replaced, one single strobe head is still brighter than that new LED and offers a wider angle of view- period!

I have seen and used just about everything from every manufacturer and LEDs just aren't ready for our use yet- no matter who makes them. In fact, a local depatment did just receive a new ladder truck with FULL LED and it's a joke- and they'll even tell you this. It looks really cool, but you can't see it well unless in line with the light heads (for the record, the truck has Whelen).
If they would have spent half as much money on halogens, it would have had twice as much lighting.

LEDs still belong on alarm clocks, and coffee makers.

They don't even belong in the brake lights of new Cadillacs. I already see 2002 model Caddys with burned rows of LEDs and GM won't repair them under warranty. I bet that entire assembly isn't under $500.00, either. A #2057 brake lamp cost about $1.50 and is just as bright- although it doesn't offer that cool "instant on" look.

spectragod · Post by **spectragod** » Tue May 27, 2003 4:28 pm

I will agree that the MX is a hell of a lightbar, hands down I feel it beats anything the market has to offer, but..... changing times and new technology, cars will soon be 42 volt, will we hate them, yes, will we find a work around, yes. I think everything has it's place, there will be pro's and con's to any light, I think the best option is a combination of strobe, LED and possibly incadesant.

I don't have any real issues with Whelen, I have had to have some ISP188's repaired before, kinda odd that their top of the line PS would fail, but they have. they were repaired timely and without incident though.

As far as the Caddilac's tail lights failing, I have not noticed mine doing anything but working as they should, as far as no warranty coverage, I believe we would be going toe to toe on that, 4 year 50K bumper to bumper, that means every part on the car, not what they want to select they don't want to repair. Besides, if you have ever set foot in a Caddilac dealer, service or sales, you will find that you are treated entirely different than being in a Chevrolet, Ford or Chrysler dealer. None the less, I will bet those assemblys are $500+, I have seen a few on ebay though.

SG

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Tue May 27, 2003 7:07 pm

If I was building a car a combination of the various lightig technology would be my choice.

Strobe/Tomar neobe strobe all around in the form of deck, dash and hide-way installs.

Halogen would probably only be used for headlight flasher.

If LED was included i would use it strictly for front or rear directional wig wag or arrowstick type use. LED's even no matter how bright just don't have the flash and "punch" of strobe or halogen for intersection warning.

If the vehicle has a lightbar then the above applies with the bar being a mix of strobe and halogen.

One PD out here has recently changed to all whelen lights bars after years of using Code 3 LP and MX7000 lightbars.

The bars are ALL strobe to the front and intersection angels with ALL LED in the rear. Its and interesting combination and one which might lead us to think this particular PD realizes the viewing angel issues with LED by placing them in the rear where a straight on view is possible.

mastr · Post by **mastr** » Wed May 28, 2003 4:30 pm

Spectragod wrote...I will agree that the MX is a hell of a lightbar, hands down I feel it beats anything the market has to offer, but..... changing times and new technology, cars will soon be 42 volt, will we hate them, yes, will we find a work around, yes. SNIP...

Three of those MX7000 rotator motors in series should work good on 42 volts.

cranbiz · Post by **cranbiz** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:23 am

Ok, I finally received most of the parts and started assembly last night. This is going to be AWESOME!

The red and amber LED's are really bright and have a decent veiwing angle and the whites, well I was almost blinded by the assembly.

Now, the details,

From RIM Industries, the Sho-me LED strobe flasher - $19.95 ( the more load on this , the better - up to the rated # of LED's) I found that on only 5 LED's per side the flasher was erratic, it stabilized as I added more load.

http://www.superbrightleds.com, 9 LED circuit boards set up in groups of 3 LED's in series with a dropping resistor for each segment - $2.95 ea for small qty, at 24 pieces, they were $2.49 ea. They also have a decent selection of all color LED's in the type of brightness needed for lighting applications. They are a little more expensive than others, but make up for it in brightness and viewing angle. Budget minded people (like me) will shop around.

http://www.eled.com, 5mm Superbright LED's. A great selection at decent pricing

Red, 4000 mcd, 30 degree viewing angle ( I wanted the 10000's but wern't in stock) - $0.248 in qty 10-99, $0.198 100-999

Orange, 2500 mcd, 30 degree viewing angle - $0.158 qty 10-99, $0.126 100-999

White, 3200 mcd, 20 degree viewing angle - $1.013 qty 10-99, $0.810 100-999

Radio Shack ( I know, I was impatient) 470 ohm and 150 ohm resistors 1/2 watt, $0.99 per 5 pack

The bar will be configured as follows,

8 segments, each segment consists of 3 boards tied together (a total of 27 LED's) 4.5" long by 1.5" wide, .5" deep

Segments 1 & 8 are red and angled out at 30 degrees to inprove side coverage, segments 2 & 7 are Red, 3&6 are White and 4&5 are Orange

Flash pattern to de determined as I can play with them to achieve the desired results.

Right now, the first boards I constructed are mounted to a piece of PVC flat stock 36"x1.5"

These will be mounted inside the cab of my truck at the top of the rear window.

If one wanted to make these waterproof, pot each module in clear epoxy (I have used the 2 part stuff that model railroaders use to make fake water)

My tests last night with only a couple of modules completed were great. Great visability with great range

My costs equal $195.17 for the parts, I had the flat stock figure $ 5-10 to purchase it

RIM Industries costs for a 32" bar in this color combination with strobe flasher $300.65

For you project minded people, the effort is worth the time, more light for less cost 36" versus 32",but it may be worth the extra money if you just want plug and play.

RIM seems to have the best prices that I have found for completed assemblies.

You may be able to find better prices on components if you look harder than I did, I know that Mouser and Digikey will beat R/S on the resistors and there maybe a better source for the LED's themselves. The boards, I think are going to be hard to find elsewhere, they are double sided and thru plated, so making them yourself is more difficult than buying them (IMHO)

PM me or post here if you have questions, I'll post pics when I'm done.

Bob

P.S. both superbrightleds.com and eled.com has many, many LED's including Green / Yellow and Blue for you who need them.

tiredfireman · Post by **tiredfireman** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:13 pm

So some of us are worried about current drain at idle, are we? Well, the bigger the alternator (OK generator for the spec freaks) the lower the output at idle (unless specially wound, which causes other headaches).
THATS WHAT A HIGH IDLE CONTROLLER IS FOR!! Or, at worst, a load shedder ("manager").
LED's are OK for brake lights, turn sigs, etc and SOME front/rear emergency lighting, but not all. On a 2 yr old rig, we are already experiencing outages on portions of the LED modules (about $150 each).
The derogatory comments about the Twinsonic were out of line, and probably made by someone who doesn't know his history. This was the first light 'bar' and was made specifically to increase warning intensity without increasing current draw (remember, 4 beacon bulbs in a bar, is the same as 4 beacon bulbs in a beacon) in consideration of the limited alternator outputs on police vehicles of the time. In the era of fire truck alternators that could power a small town, losing your air conditioning would be wiser than limiting your warning lighting. Oh, by the way, does anyone remember that a mechanical siren draws around 175 amps once 'wound up'?? I really chuckle when I hear the battery woes of the Depts. that have TWIN "Q's" on the bumper.
Think hard, spec. well. All that is new is not necessarily the best.

chipjumper · Post by **chipjumper** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:33 pm

I saw an old AeroDynic on a newer taurus the other day...UGLY

In regards to the Twin-sonic: "...it qualifies for "Flying Brick" status, and was known to cut as much as 5-10mph of the top speed of a vehicle."

kb9suy · Post by **kb9suy** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:34 pm

I bought this light awhile ago blue an blue. It's like parting the red sea. Day or night people just move. Its all I need really. It so bright at night that you cant look at it directly with out having close your eyes. it gets the job done. It's blind at any angle either. you see from everywere. At night all you see is just blue everywere. its pretty intense.

LED Opinions....

LED Opinions....

LEDs suck. They're good VCR "power on" indicators.

Re: LEDs suck. They're good VCR "power on" indicat

Re: LEDs suck. They're good VCR "power on" indicat

Update on the LED Experiment

led's

Whelen Talon