P25 Hams

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:36 pm

007 · Post by **007** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:31 am

Interesting...good link.

Post by **batdude** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:21 am

i tried to join as an OWNER of a ham P25 repeater

they told me to FO - i am not an "APCO member"

stick a fork in me

doug

RocketNJ · Post by **RocketNJ** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:51 pm

I think us P25 hams should have our own group. Oh wait, we do here!

George

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:36 pm

Doug, I suspose APCO folks see their APCO Organization first, and the P25 Hams second. Actually, it isn't too expensive to join APCO (and just think, you can then wear an offcial APCO T-Shirt!).

Larry

nitornemo · Post by **nitornemo** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:31 am

ASTROMODAT wrote:Doug,...... Actually, it isn't too expensive to join APCO (and just think, you can then wear an offcial APCO T-Shirt!).
Larry

KEYWORD JOIN

Doug was told to FO because he does not $upport their org.

All breaks down to the dollar$, if you don't pay FO.

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:44 am

Its always about money, those snobby bastards!!!!! Probally have to give up couple astro to be able to join

nitornemo · Post by **nitornemo** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:58 am

It is always about the dollar$ when you get down to it.
Hey, you should join us to receive "X" and "Y" and with your PAID membership you will get "Z"

Don't tell them you have a Secret Squirrel OFB module in your astro....
You'll be black-balled

Dale Earnhardt wrote:Its always about money, those snobby bastards!!!!! Probally have to give up couple astro to be able to join

JohnG · Post by **JohnG** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:31 pm

I think you guys miss the point. The mailing list mentioned above has nothing to do with APCO P-25. The list is dealing with Amateur radio operators who work in the public safety arena (and are already APCO members). Again, from my read of this it has nothing to do with the use of P-25 modulation and equipment on the Amateur radio bands.

Post by **batdude** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:54 pm

all of my local PD's (and even the military) are all still analog....mostly using MSR2000 and MSF's.

even the USMC security guys (who have a ...droool....low split VHF quantar) only use DES-XL.... even tho they all have astro radios...duh

oh well.

i still ain't joining apco, even if i could after their response.

doug

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:22 pm

Ehhh, there probally overweight ham's, that has no life, no offense to you guys on here lol.

KA0SQO · Post by **KA0SQO** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:23 am

We have them around here as well, they are the same ones you see at the hamfests carrying some big rockbound HT with a rubber duck secured by a myrad of coax adapters to the top and wearing one of those jackets printed with some sort of law enforcement logo or security. These are the same guys who come across your table and tell you that the radios you are selling are "illegal" for ham use or that you can't legally posses the radio in the first place. I was hackled by one of these a few years back selling Syn-X's that were programmed up to our popular local repeaters. This is the same guy who also bitches because he couldnt gouge someone down by fifty cents for old seagate 25 MEG drive but he took it anyway and was going to replace the motor driver transistors while sitting in his underwear in his shack.

They wonder why I dont allow them on MY repeater...

KAØSQO

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:28 am

You go r0f!!!

ROTFL hehee. Like those guys with 5 radios on thier belt, antennas everywhere like RF Porkupines. Out here in CA, us in GMRS wanted to assist with radio comms for the red cross during the fires. BUT OH NO!!!! if you were not a ham--Get lost!!!

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:20 pm

I think, we talked about this before, or somebody did, about Ham operators are always fat, or OLDDDDDD, lol, and those ppl that are ham/commerical, usually are not fat and old.

I remember it was a post somwhere.

Also, am not sure this is true, but u guys got to admit it okkk lol, but havent u guys notice that most radio ppl, either have no gf of wife, or have been divorced more then 1 time???????????????????????????

scary isnt it, if you think about it lol.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:30 pm

r0f must be a huge Tom Leykis fan!

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:05 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:r0f must be a huge Tom Leykis fan!

ASTROMODAT - I've been wondering now for a while, where do ya live? You in So Cal?

KA0SQO · Post by **KA0SQO** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:39 pm

Oh boy Im not sure I want to know where this is going!

Seriously Im not fat at 6'0 and 180 nor am I a hairy porcupine whos quills are erect antennas from outdated HTs all running from recycled NiCds that were raped from some poor laptop battery. I work in the commercial 2-way radio sector during the day and spend time with my son after hours doing railroading and other fun dad/kid stuff. I dont sit around in my underwear trying to revive a dead 286-XT by chance changing logic ICs nor do I care for 3 day old coffee from the microwave. I do shower on a daily basis and clean my up to date glasses when they get mussed. I do change my socks daily as well and I dont wear some funky old police dept hand me down jacket from the early 1970's! When I talk on my own repeaters (443.150/145.230) its from a tone remote console on a wireline to the repeaters and speak as I used to when I did a brief stint as a PD dispatcher. I get called a lid and other names off the air but what can I say? If you dont like it then QSY I dont have time for trolls who want to enforce there own "rules" as radio cops. When they see me at hamfests if I choose to go they run and hide because they dont want to deal with me. Im a very direct and in the face person and if they choose to bad mouth me on the air I let it be known in person.
I dont use Magmounts for anything other than erasing tapes or picking up piles of screws and I dont home brew some contraption to direct modulate an almost dead Yaesu memorizer for packet that is used with that dead 286XT running off the ST225 drive with the dead motor drivers. I use a REAL motorola 9100 MDT running in terminal mode to a REAL packet controller and my only radio that is NOT motorola is a Yaesu FT-726R and B/K VHF because I like doing 6M SSB and 430SSB. Non bastardized and molested with no mods to make it better and has never seen a golden screwdriver. The B/K is only a tool and lives in my toolbox because it's front panel programmable and is still the staple model used by several local PDs that I do contract work for.

KAØSQO
What if the whole world farted at once?

007 · Post by **007** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:47 pm

This is for KA0SQO, R0f and the rest of the hams who hate being associated with the typical "ham" :

Here in Wisconsin, like most other places I'm sure, there is an ever-growing crowd of ham radio degenerates that pollute the RF specturm the lower atmoshpere with their babble and stench. Our problem is one of mental and physical hygeine (sp?...went to public skool

)

If you go to a ham club meeting there is the stinky section, the psycho section, the ever-shrinking normal section and the board members table at the front. Be prepared to pass out at some of the clubs' meetings, because that room will be ripe in minutes!

The repeaters, mostly VHF (including the one I work on), house these degenerates that have bad attitudes, some with no jobs and most smell like :o. I realize that some people are out of work for valid reasons, but some of these losers haven't worked for years because they are too lazy. I heard one loser say that "Ham radio is my job" the other day. This a$$hole could work, but doesn't....he makes you and me pay his unemployment and/or welfare so he can get up, eat like a pig (looks like a heifer), talk on the radio all day, and come to "his" club meeting and stink it up with piss-poor hygeine.

No wonder I never talk on VHF ham or even make it known I have a license...It's not something I'm proud of at this point.

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:30 pm

I just realize something, lol, I bet on other boards right now, there linking this topic to there, and talking crap about us too lol........

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:06 am

Yep I can agree, amateur radio as a whole has taken a real path towards the armpit here lately.

There is too many idiots on 2m - I own some VHF gear but it's mainly for work related needs - and I try to avoid 2m like the plague. At hamfests, I'm not running around with a callsign name tag, I don't have call plates, I don't own a boom mike or a stupid hat antenna clip.

My viewpoint is this - This is all the more reason for us to experiment with new stuff....I've got some folks up and going on UHF P25, and we are working on 900 MHz stuff also, amongst our commercial interests.

Shaun - tell that goof to take his damn jacket off.
And take a bath like about 50% of hams need to.

Jay

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:56 am

None of the hams I know and consider friends look like that, but were also all cops, firefighters and EMS people.....

I made some comments a while ago about hamfests and how bad they have become. Not to mention the child molestor / registered sex offender types walking around at them (well they sure look like that type of person!)

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:31 am

As far as Hams smelling awful, being morbidly obese, and having raging cases of severe halitosis, that is normal for Hams---always has been, and always will be. The issue now is that Ham 2M and UHF activity has been rapidly declining over the last few years. I think it is due to a combination of factors: ever increasingly cheap cell phones and airtime rates, and the huge success of PCs and the Internet. Throughout western Washington, many 2M repeaters that previously operated literally non-stop around the clock with tons of chatter now sit absolutely silent, without a single transmission for days at a time. They typically are still operational, but no one is using them anymore. Scanning 30 of the most popular Ham 2M and 440 machines in town for days at a time often results in not a single key-up being heard. The WWARA coordination agency is seeing a large percentage of repeater licensees not renewing their coordinations, and owners are simply allowing their coordiantions to expire. The list of expired repeater coordinations is growing at a very rapid pace. It looks to me like Ham radio is in a death spiral. Too bad, because this means the frequency allocations will soon be taken away, and sold to entities such as Nextel, etc.

Larry

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:49 pm

I enjoy amateur radio around here, although I've never come across anyone like what r0f has shown us hahaha....Close (when I was in Canada) but no cigar!

I'm not obese either- yes a bit weird, but you have to be! I'm 5'9" and 180- and work hard to a living...

I have a really old MT500, PT500, etc. But they're just for "once-in-a-while" listening. I really like the newer stuff too. The GP2000 adds a nice touch

Who needs a radio cop anyhow? Save it for the FCC!

-Josh
KC8UTI ~Ham
WPTP753 ~GMRS

007 · Post by **007** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:06 pm

Let's see that picture again!!!!!

r0f wrote:Guys,

As promised.. Here's the god damn nutjob I told you about.

<img src="http://www.plc.mb.ca/ham.jpg">

This FREEK is from my city. It is SUMMER TIME (+30c, about 85-90F) at the time of this picture. He's wearing a winter parka, has a loser ARES plush hat on, and an antenna attached to his head, with a boom mic.

Now maybe you understand why I do not want anything to do with ham radio around here? Screw these people.

S

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Half the ARES guys run around here like that....total geeks. Why do you think I have /\/\ gear???

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:31 pm

Well, THats the thing I was saying

You have Ham ppl that look like what we describe or something,

ANd then you have Ham/Commercial ppl, they usually are not the typical ham ppl that I notice, like me lol

Its intresting to think about all the ppl you met over the year and catagorize them to that 2 groups

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:34 pm

Well, at least nobody have put a Lo-band antenna on there hat yet lol

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:40 pm

Hey Dale.. I almost thought that guy above in the ARES hat was from RUG...

apco25 · Post by **apco25** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:48 pm

Funny thing is the "ham" types shown above thing we're weird because we have commerical radios

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:51 am

Hehe,
Man this is about the funniest thread i've seen on here. We get the same kind of "jabba the trolls" at the SoCal area radio swaps. I need to bring a camera..and "snap me a real winner"..hehe

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:00 am

I'm just remembering that I have a friend whose uncle looks like that guy- with piles of stupid accessories and antennas up the wazoo-

Unlike these folks, I suppose I'd consider myself a "professional ham"- pretty much things as-they-are. My HT1250 has the stock antenna, no funny or unusual accessories (I rarely even use a speaker/mic). Sometimes I wear as many as 3 radios though, so maybe that's odd.....actually I'm usually loaded down with radios. There are no Motorola dual-banders out there, so I have no choice!

And on-topic, when it comes to P25 and amateur radio, wanting money to use the repeater is bogus. It's bad enough when you have to spend big $$$ on digital equipment as it is ($1k per radio!?!?).

-Josh

2wayfreq · Post by **2wayfreq** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:37 am

Well..I cant rag too much because I dont even have a ham ticket yet. I will eventually, but its mostly GMRS repeaters in the L.A. area and carrying one sizeable radio; my Astro Saber III. For me, thats enough rig right there. But I have it in an uncle mikes nylon universal radio holster so its a bit lighter--plus the shorter battery. I only whip out the 3000ma when the shorter one goes dead. But..i'm not/cant have multiple units on me.. its too much. Just kinda low profile under a jacket with a mic. That picture--Oh...My....God!!!!!! Can you say.."Shallow end of the gene pool?" I knew ya could

Hes gonna microwave his noodle!!!:o

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:02 pm

Well stated, rOf. However, there is a good possibility that the ICOM D-STAR system, and related product line, may reverse the trend of Ham radio being inferior to commercial radio. Kenwood has also come out now and endorsed the digital voice and high speed data D-STAR protocol (AMBE+ using GMSK---it rocks!). I can't speak to Hams personal hygene and the like, but I have used the D-STAR prototype radios, and their AMBE+ vocoder puts IMBE to shame, and I kid you not. Besides the 128 kb/s mobile/portable high speed data and a true digital end-to-end connection over the Internet (not the IRLP A/D and D/A outdated junk), this D-STAR system has many features that make ASTRO look truly dated. Stay tuned. I will report when I have my own D-STAR repeater up and running in March, 2004. We'll see...

ICOM is also imminently introducing single and multi band radios priced roughly the same as their current analog FM radios ($250, or a bit more), without the high speed data function. They will utilize DVSI's "AMBE+" vocoder for digital voice (using GMSK modulation vs/ P25's FDMA), but no hi speed data for those Hams not wanting to use nor invest in HS data capabilities. This looks very interesting!

Larry

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:23 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote:but I have used the D-STAR prototype radios, and their AMBE+ vocoder puts IMBE to shame,

Some buddies of mine already have a D-STAR repeater running and some preproduction radios. The audio sounds like :o, IMHO, compared to P25. Side by side with an AS3, D-STAR is no match.

Not to say that it's unlistenable or anything, just that it could use some improvement...

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:23 pm

rOf, I don't believe we will see any sort of upgrade to AMBE vocoders during P25 Phase 1. In fact, if you read the P25 standard, it REQUIRES the use of IMBE vocoders during, and throughout, APCO P25 Phase 1. AMBE vocoders would be entirely incompatible with IMBE radios, unless there was double vocoding at each console (e.g., via back-to-back DIUs), which is unacceptable in terms of voice quality, and it won't happen. Talking between IMBE and AMBE radios is no different than saying you would use a VSELP radio to talk to an IMBE radio---it's not compatible. When DVSI uplifts their IMBE vocoder firmware, keep in mind that these uplifts are backward compatible with earlier IMBE firmware loads, by design. The first realistic chance to see AMBE vocoders in P25 rasdios will be when we get to Phase 2 with TDMA, since complete radio hardware changeouts will then be required (this is where we will go completely 6.25 kHz, which will support 4 talkpaths per 25 kHz "channel" and use TDMA instead of FDMA).

As to IMBE, I don't agree that we have seen the last upgrade. We are currently working with DVSI involving their Net2000 box, and their Engineers have said they will probably ciontinue to tweak the quality of IMBE. Don't forget that iDEN and Iridium both use IMBE. I believe it will be a horse race as to whether we migrate to P25 Phase 2 with its all new radio hardware (TDMA, plus other huge radio hardware changes), by the time Motorola decides to implement whatever improved version(s) of IMBE are available at that time. We'll have to wait and see how things actually unfold!

Larry

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:25 pm

r0f wrote:Anyway, DSTAR sounds very interested. I wonder if the ham crap will support encryption? NOT. Maybe there will be a commercial offering of DSTAR, supporting AES-256.

S

I can't quote the encryption specs, but I do know that ICOM is forced to change the firmware to get rid of encryption (since it's not allowed in the US on the ham bands). I wasn't aware, but apparently, in other parts of the world, crypto over ham is allowed.

I also read somewhere that public safety in Japan is either already using or planning to use D-STAR for their primary communications...

I thought you didn't like AES?!?

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:35 pm

tvsjr, who are "these buddies" of yours, and where is this D-STAR repeater operating that you refer to?! As of today (Dec 18, 2003), there are currently a total of 2 D-STAR repeaters in the entire USA---one is at ICOM's Bellevue HQ on top of their roof, and the other one has been shipped from Dallas back to ICOM's HQ in Bellevue, so which one are you referring to?!

Larry

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:35 pm

r0f wrote:Now that I've played with commercial radios for the last 4-5 years, I would never go back to ham junk. Hams don't like commercial radios because they're not "field programmable", but hams can't use their gear to talk in an urban an environment anyway, because of all the IMD problems that arise

You should watch a true ham sputter when we're in a ham radio vs. commercial radio argument. They always pull the "it's not field programmable!" line. I calmly pull out my trio of HT1550XLSs... VHF, UHF Lo, and UHF Hi, and put them into edit mode. "Where would you like to go, today?"

"Oh, and don't forget that my radios put your radios to shame in terms of ruggedness (yes, the 1550s are actually pretty rugged!), battery life, audio quality (TX/RX), scan capability, etc."

The only thing ham radios have on commercial gear is that it costs less. You gets what you pays for, IMHO.

For those that haven't been, Dayton is a wonderful place to a. meet your fellow Batlabbers and b. observe HAMs that, well, may be of a different species than the rest of us... weird appendages, antennas in odd places, etc. Me, I walked around last year with my 1550 and an earpiece, and it was a wonderful thing.

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:32 pm

To really spot out a hardcore hams on Freeways and sort, look for those Big HF antenna, my gosh,, they can be in a geo metro, and have those big antenna, to the point, why not put a repeater antenna

KA0SQO · Post by **KA0SQO** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:04 pm

Dale Earnhardt wrote:To really spot out a hardcore hams on Freeways and sort, look for those Big HF antenna, my gosh,, they can be in a geo metro, and have those big antenna, to the point, why not put a repeater antenna

Dont give 'em any ideas, pretty soon we will be reading about the cop wanna-be with a station master hanging from his trailer hitch on the back of that Metro along with the 5 layers of amber lights all strung through the back window...

Actually we have 2 kinds of these dweebs running through the hamfests, the quiet ones and the blow hards. The quiet ones are the guys who hold a conversation with themselves but hardly say a word to anyone other than to protest about the cold coffee. The blow hards are the ones to "know it all", these are the guys who walk past rather quickly saying "Don't you know anything GOOD?" They are also the ones who adapted an HT600 speakermic to a RadShack HTX202 and wear that 20 year old police or security foam front hat and worn out jacket.
Arguments have come to me from these guys about how the 202 has a tight front end and never caves into intermod, yea well ever hear of PL or DPL? What happens when you drop that 202 on a hard floor? (demo as I drop my saber-3) "Oh well its not field programmable" as pointed out in an earlier post. Well do I NEED to field program? No, why should I worry about being 15Khz off because I bumped the VFO. Well the 202 has 5 watts of RF output... Put that 202 next to my 10 watt saber and see what happens, yes I do have it cranked to 10 watts in a seperate group the others are 1-2 watts. What was that about a front end? as his 202 caves in from the stray RF coming from some open 286 sitting on a table running some slow demo.
How would you like a reverse MOTOROLA logo imprinted on your head?

Remember the looser picks up the broken pieces...

Actually Im not that well liked in the "general ham community" because I rock the boat. Well if you dont like it then get your hind end back on the shore. My son actually LEFT ham radio because of the dweeb and lid factor trying to cram their personal rules down his throat. He asked me one day "Whats the point?" and I tried to explain it to him but his only response was "Its really sad that Im more mature than most of these guys" this coming from a 15 y/o but he was right. So now we have a closed invite only system of our own that is DPL conventional and 4 chan LTR based for those who want to get brave or bold (or stupid) and with the constant MDC1200 running the only ones who never hear are the moto users with proper code detect running. Its a Kenwood and Moto only system whos users are intellegent enough to know whats really going on. All the dweebs do is complain about the combo packet/voice repeater that never shuts up and is always kerchunked... Get over it guys this is the 21 century now and lunchbox 2-ers are not allowed!

KAØSQO who is a little tired of listening to all of the old farts on the 2M band, think I will go back to my LTR system...

Dale Earnhardt · Post by **Dale Earnhardt** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:17 pm

omg, we wont go there about rules, and regulations, those hams, take it so seriously!!!, its like AHHH I wanna scream, when they get into it.

Oh yeah thats true too, I do hear alot of intermods from there radios, no matter which swapmeet I go too, they alwasy past you and you hear intermod, dont these guys use pl?

Oh heyy 2wayfreq, tomoroow, we gonna see the antenna that is stretch between those 2 light pole over there, for everybody to hear the morse code, I think they just go there just to setup it up and just listen to it.

P25 Hams

P25 Hams

yeah...

that's ok...