MOTOROLA VS. OTHERS; BUYING HELP!

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:32 pm

I am interested in buying radios, however the last time we bought radios there was only one company that I knew around, and that was Motorola. Now I have a choice, between Icom, Vertex Standard and Motorola. I am currently working in a school district, Specifically a large High School where we use old P10, SP50 and Relm radios that I want to get rid of. Now the question is, who I should go with in terms of quality, price and warranty?

ANB_Medic · Post by **ANB_Medic** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:14 pm

Well, Motorola is always a good bet. I recently acquired a Vertex VX-900, however, and I love the thing. I've always been a die hard /\/\ fan, but Vertex is a really tough radio, and the software is free.

If you want to get rid of your boat anchors, let me know. I might take them off your hands.

Todd

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:50 am

KENWOOOD!!

http://www.kenwood.net

Vertex has some repair & service department issues at the momenet. They make good stuff but I'm sorry, 3 months is a little too long to evaluate a warrenty repair. I know they are trying to do better but until they actually do, I am steering clear, I don't know anyone who has ever used Icomm commercial gear.

Post by **firemed9** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:15 am

Before I throw you in one direction or another, I and others could use a little more information. What are they being used for? Administration, janitorial, maintence??? How many radios are you looking for? How many channels do you need available? I am a big Kenwood fan, but Motorola also has very good radios and service.

kydeputy1463 · Post by **kydeputy1463** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:38 am

I second the Kenwood motion.

I have not seen a new Moto that will out perform a Kenwood in price or voice quality. I can buy 2 kenwood handhelds to every 1 motorola. And the programming setup is very inexpensive compared to Motorola, and IMHO is more user friendly. Granted Motorola did have killer products back in the day, but I have yet to see any new products that have impressed me. I will probably get flamed majorly for this but I think everyone is entitled to express thier honest opinion. Thank you for your time.

c17loadsmasher · Post by **c17loadsmasher** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:11 am

Is Kenwood like Motorola where you have to go to a dealer to get it programmed, or do you have the ability to do it yourself with some software or whatnot? Just curious. The ability to make programming changes at will without having to go to a dealer is a pretty big selling point.. I'd be more inclined to buy something that I can change myself rather than incurring a fee everytime I want to change an option.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:43 am

Kenwood will sell their very easy to use software to the end user, no questions asked. It is all less than $100.00.

BrienD · Post by **BrienD** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:20 am

It sounds like you are using one channel Dot frequencies (SP10). Are you planning to up grade? If so that may drive your decision. My paying job is for a school district and we use SP 50s at our site that has a repeater. We use sp10s at most others. Administrators always lose radios and I would hate to lose a good radio.
Brien

thehead7 · Post by **thehead7** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:29 am

My experience with Icom commercial gear is mainly limited to a VHF repeater. It didn't impress me too much. It's RX sens was like .5 uV at 12 dB SINAD, and I looked at the spec and that's where it was supposed to be. I was pretty unimpressed.

I've got a buddy that used to work for Kenwood Systems, and I've been somewhat impressed by a lot of their stuff. It's also a lot less expensive than /\/\ gear.

I still love my motorola, though.

-Head

EKLB · Post by **EKLB** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:32 am

I think Kydeputy1463 pretty much has the exact same impresion and thinking i have as to motorola.

Again im still pretty proud of some of motorolas older stuff but the newer
ht750/ht1250/ht1550 series stuff is just plain crappy and ill go as far as to say junk.

Till M gets there head out of thier clouds ( Ha you thought i was going to say ??? ) Well im thinking it = Id go with Kenwood myself as well.

Kenwood seems to have a better opinion and PR with its end users and i think its because they do care more tha M does.

As for Icom i only had one experience with it and it was bad enough that i would not consider trying another.

EKLB

nc5p · Post by **nc5p** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:12 am

I will say this for Kenwood: I lost a knob off the front panel, I called them and they immediatly sent me a new knob free of charge. The radio was NOT under warranty at the time. Nice folks!

Doug

x1sspic · Post by **x1sspic** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:55 am

I am certainly an avid Motorola fan, but I've had more opportunities to use kenwood products as of late, and I have to say that I've been impressed. The only problem I have with Kenwood is the lack of MDC signalling built into the radio (since it is a motorola proprietary).

1 Adam 12 · Post by **1 Adam 12** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:11 am

Another motorola fan, but I must say Kenwood would be my first choice for this situation. Yaseu also is good...( they are slow on repairs)

The only problem I have with Kenwood is the lack of MDC signalling built into the radio (since it is a motorola proprietary).

I don't know about other models but both Cimarron and another company make MDC boards that went into Kenwood TK 290s which allowed the agency to choose the Kenwood for additional radios.... MDC and GE-STAR where available in aftermarket boards for radios ( size permitting)

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:16 am

Kenwood definately the way to go.

Wes

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:10 pm

We will have 5 channels in use. We are currently trying to divide the system into two, Administrators and Janitors. My policy about losing is simple. You lose it, You buy it. So that policy has worked.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:10 pm

IMHO, for low tier applications such as shool use, ICOM, Kenwood, Radio Shack, Yaesu, etc. will all do the job. You might even try FRS. Go for rock bottom low price, as these Rice Rockets are all about the same.

Better yet, consider Nextel. If it's good enough for "24," it ought to do the job for a school application.

However, when there are lives on the line, you definitely need Motorola. I can't think of a single case where the Dept of Homeland Security has used any of these off-shore vendors. They do use Nextel.

Larry

commtek · Post by **commtek** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:19 pm

ASTROMODAT wrote: However, when there are lives on the line, you definitely need Motorola. I can't think of a single case where the Dept of Homeland Security has used any of these off-shore vendors. They do use Nextel.

Larry

Motorola when lives are on the line....Let's ask the 343 from 9/11 about that. I would put up any Kenwood against the off shore produced stuff that Mother is putting out as of late.

Post by **firemed9** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:25 pm

I would definitely look at the Kenwood line then. You can get a TK-*60 series radio, which is 8 channels, no scan for less than $300 if you look around. That price usually includes a new radio, new hi-cap battery, regular rate charger and belt clip. Most dealers will program for you for free on purchase. I have yet to find a moto dealer, at least around my area that will do that.

ASTROMODAT · Post by **ASTROMODAT** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:06 pm

It's kind of hard for a Quantar to keep working when it's at the bottom of 90 some floors of debris!

Larry

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:47 pm

Vertex V-160

16 channel
5 Watts power output
MIL-STD 810 C/D/E
12.5/25 KHz bandwidth programmable by channel
[If you need more then 8 channels, then look at this radio, otherwise go for the Kenwood[/i]

Vertex V-210A

16 chennels
5 Watts
Scan
12.5/25 KHz bandwidth programmable by channel
Like the V-160 but smaller and more money

Motorola Radius P1225

2 or 16 Channel
5/4 watts (VHF/UHF)
MIL-STD 810 C,D,E
2.5/25 kHz Switchable Channel Spacing
Good radio, just probably more then you need or what to pay for.

Kenwood TK-260/360 (VHF/UHF)

8-channel
5/4 watts (VHF/UHF)
2.5/25 kHz Switchable
I would say this is your top pick, of the radios I have used

Icom F11/F22 (VHF/UHF)

2 (S) or 16 Channel
5/4 watts (VHF/UHF)
2.5/25 kHz Switchable
Get the Kenwood or Vertex over this radio, not really a bad radio, just that the others are better IMHO. The Kenwood and Vertex feel like there build better and the Icom has a funking charger.

I have used all the above radios, and I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. My first pick would be the Kenwood as it seem to be the most rugged and has everything you seem to need. The Motorolas is great and is one that I use often, but it's bigger, cost more and has a of stuff that you don't seem to need. The Kenwood should be somewere around $200 less then the Motorola.

The radio's below are ones that I have not used, but seem to fill the bill for what you are looking for. Hopefully other here will be able to fill in more about those for you.

Motorola Radius SP 50

10 Channels
not sure on anything eles, never used one.

Motorola CP150/CP200

Lots of info on this board, and I sure that some people on here have used/played with them. Hopefully someone can coment. The prices I've seen are around that of the Kenwood TK-260/360. Might be something to look into.

Motorola CTR Series

Looks like crap, other then that I don't really know.

Kenwood TK-2160/3160

Don't know anything other then it's new.

You said something about trying to move your system into two parts and in another post you said that this would be UHF and VHF. If I were you I would really, really, really rethink that. It's soooo much easyer to get into one band. You only have to have one kind of radio and you can have less spares as one will work with either group. Something to think about.

Cam

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:54 pm

Cam 22.....

FYI.....

The first Kenwood picture you posted is a TK-260/360, not TK-280/390.

The description under the pic is correct, you just posted the wrong model numbers.

The TK-280/380/480 series is 250 channel, alpha-numeric display, VHF/UHF/800, conventional or LTR Trunking. Mid Tier radio.

TK-190/290/390/5400 is Kenwood's Public Safety Line. The 3 90 series are Low-Band/VHF/UHF and are 160 channels (except the Low-Band is only 16 channels), alpha-numeric top display, etc

The TK-5400 is Kenwood's 800 MHz APCO 25 Digital radio. It is on the same chassis as the 90 series.

Just wanted to clear those things up. If contrak10 is going to go with the best, he needs to be looking for the correct model.

I will agree that the 60 series is the best choice for him.

If he wants to get out even cheaper, he can go with the TK-3101 UHF. It is on the same chassis as the 60 series, uses all the same batteries, chargers, accessories and is a 15 channel radio that comes programmed with FRS channels. It is 2 watts.

Just a thought.

Wes

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:09 pm

Thanks Wes.

Not sure what I was doing when I typed that. The 80 or 90's would be a little over kill. I when back and edited that.

The TK-3101K2 (Freetalk XL) is a great radio IMHO. I am looking at one as I am typing this that is sitting on my desk charging after a weekend of skiing. It comes with 15 GMRS freq in it and you can change the PL/QT by pushing buttons, no computer needed. With the software and cable, it becomes a two watt, 15 channel UHF handheld that can do a range of something like 450-490Mhz. The best thing about it is that you can get them new (or I did) for less then $160.00. Won't work if you need VHF as the VHF is only comes in a one or two channel (and cost more then the 15 channel UHF).

Anybody have something to say about the CP200 or CP150? They seem to go for $250-$320 and look like they could be in line with the TK-260/TK360.

Cam

Gerbil · Post by **Gerbil** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:56 pm

nextel. what, are you on crack?
stupid

FRS. equally stupid.

anyway.
first choice vertex. They make good rugged, small radios. Programming cord and software are cheap, and are avalible to the end user.

Second choice, especially if initial cost is an issue, kenwood.
Again, programming can be done by the end user with a cheap cable and software. They may not be as durable as the vertex (personal experance, your milage will vary) but they are inexpensive radios that will last a while.

I trust public safety (life limb property) commuinications to Vertex's PS grade radios daily. I'm not a fan of kenwood for public safety, but for every day usage at a school, they are hard to beat.

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:29 pm

Now lets talk Prices, How much are the radios we are talking about? Secondly, how are the CP200 radios any good? I have tried the VertexStandard radios they worked good but I just want to get a full range of what's out there. Just some building info, The building I work in is about 100 years old and some parts of the building are No service areas for both Nextel and VHF radios. Will UHF solve the problem, I did read that UHF is better for buildings, is this in fact true?

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:56 pm

How about size, how many floors does the building have? What is it made of? Do you need service in basements? sub-basements? What are you using now and how is that working for you?

In most case, UHF is better then VHF inside building, it more of a matter of how much better and if it will be enouth to fix the problem.

As for pricing, most of the Motorola radio listed can be looked up on line for pricing. Vertex will not be so easy and you will have to go to your local dealer. Kenwood, some of the radios can be had online and most can't. It will matter how many you will be buying.

Gerbil · Post by **Gerbil** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:00 pm

UHF will penetrate an older building better then a VHF, especially if you feed it 4-5 watts compared to 2 watts.

I've heard alot of good things about the VX-210, which is comparable in size and features to the old VX-400 which i used.

EKLB · Post by **EKLB** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:44 am

Id have to go along with the above info on the UHF doing better in a building than VHF.

Reason being that while i believe VHF does penetrate walls better than UHF
the Vhf seems to get lost on thicker obstacles and stops .

But even though UHF doesnt penetrate as well as VHF it does (UHF) have a great tendancy to bounce around and get around obstructions through open door ways or through glass and bounce back from another direction many times sucessfully completing its contact with the other radio.

For this reason i believe most times UHF would be the best way to go for inside building coverage.

However if your in a tight room without a way out for UHF then youd probably want VHF for penetration through as you dont have an open for the bounce.

Oh yeah = I know didnt solve a thing most likely / But i believe this to be fairly accurate for my experiences.

What have you other Batlabbers had for experiences or your opinion for that matter on the charaterists of both UHF and VHF ????

Id be interested in hearing your thoughts as well as while im standing by my views because i believe them to be true= id still like to read yours and possibly reconsider my belief with your valid inputs ect.

Please when replying with your thoughts state whether its your opinion or experience and why you believe it to be so.

Thanx Guys/Gals

EKLB

BrienD · Post by **BrienD** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:24 am

I think UHF is the way to go. I will allow you to go to a repeater later down the road without replacing all of your portables. I also agree that it will help your coverge.

EKLB · Post by **EKLB** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:04 pm

Not a bad idea or option on the repeater if went UHF = I hadnt thought of that one / Good job Briend.

And as long as Briend brought up the idea option as a later alternative id like to add this.

What about the passive repeater antenaes idea for the buildings coverage.

I have not had any experience with the passive repeater situation but corect me if im wrong= is the passive repeater basicly two antenaes set up with say one at one end of the building and another at the oposite end with a length of coax conecting them together ?

The idea behind this if i got it corect was that the antenaes and coax would capture the tx freq and spread it out across the entire rx ant and alowed it to leak out the other if not both antenaes thus spreading out the freq and creating additional if not 100 percent coverage.

Assuming of course it was instaled above everyone such as in the attic roof area as an example.

Just another thought= whats your experiences and opinions of this idea Guys/Gals ?

EKLB

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:36 pm

Remember Passive antenna's are loss prone in the connecting cable. A Bi-Directional antenna system would work through the use of RF amps in the system.

I think before we flood this person with a million things we need to know all the specifics as to the building and other coverage area's involved.

I worked on a design for a major US airport terminal project in the early 90's and we used everything from Slot cable to in building repeaters to yagi's pointed at the building.

EKLB · Post by **EKLB** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:24 pm

The idea was not intended to flood anyone with ideas but rather better inform them of other options.

I believe he has the ability to make the proper decisions in his case and i intend to leave it to him to decide or ask qestions he needs info on.

Im beginning to feel a down side of this and will go back to just reading again.

Im not here to start any flame wars nor do i need any.

EKLB

USPSS · Post by **USPSS** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:31 pm

I was not picking on anyone, I don't do that LOL

maverick15951 · Post by **maverick15951** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:12 pm

first of all we must find out exactly who is in charge of buying the radios the man leaving the messages or is he just asking for info... if this is radios for a school district they will be bought as whatever is the cheapest priced ... not functionality or perks.. every distributor has high med and low grade radios from different manufactures... as with most govt, controlled facilities, the final answer normally comes from someone who knows nothing about what they are ordering.. as for the persons suggesting using frs , pay no attention to them.. for one the use of family radios for business is illegal.. thus the name FAMILY radio service.. as for nextel the ultimate price would be astouding.. a never ending payment for radio service that is probably only needed to cover a mile or so... to the man asking for info I would say. find out what local companies you can deal with and request information from them.. They prob. have a good Idea of what you need.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:22 pm

maverick15951 wrote:first of all we must find out exactly who is in charge of buying the radios the man leaving the messages or is he just asking for info...

No we don't.
Itdoes not matter if he or someone else is buying the radio's. This is an information board, even if he is not the one buying, he is free to ask questions.

as for the persons suggesting using frs , pay no attention to them.. for one the use of family radios for business is illegal.. thus the name FAMILY radio service..

I would agree that FRS is not the best option, but it is by no means illegal. If they wish to use it, they can, as can almost any business. What they can't use is GMRS, but I don't think anyone said they could.

Cam

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:49 pm

I will be taking up a position in June that will put me in charge of the radios. Government discounts do not apply to individual school purchases, so will be paying the full amount. The building was built in four phases the first being in 1915, the second in 1931, the third in 1968 and the fourth in 2000. All parts are connected to each other, and has often been called a electricians nightmare. However the problem is not with the old building, it is the newest building that has the dead zone. Like I said I'm looking for UHF. I have found a good VertexStandard dealer at http://www.ameradio.com and the give the prices.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:53 pm

New building = steel

Welcome to the club....

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:15 pm

Ok tell me what you think about this idea, or if it is even possible. We have now two bases located in the building, one is in the main office and he other in a secretaries office. What I want to do is get rid of those base stations and place MC2000 deskset controllers. I want MC2000 in three locations, Main Office, Guidance and Administration office. The MC2000's would all be connected to one parallel box, which that would be connected to a MAXTRAC mobile/base. Would it be more cost effective to go with three bases or three deskset's? Can the MC2000 communicate to all 4 channels even though there is only one base or will I have to use PL tones on the same frequency to be able to communicate on all 4? All the offices are within 100 feet of each other. I have decided to go with both Motorola and Kenwood on the portables. I'm buying 4 HT1250 full keypads for the Administrators and CP200's for other staff. Custodians and emergency radios will all be Kenwood. I'm trying to make the entire fleet MDC1200 compatible. How much do you think the MC2000 system will run?

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:23 pm

Contrak- I just want to make sure you don't have a district radio shop. In quite a few districts, the radio are controlled by a central office. Make sure of this before you do anything as it could cost you your job. What area are you in, maybe someone here can help you locally?

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:09 pm

According to state law, I have to get board approval before purchasing anything from anyone. I'm looking to purchase items from locations not yet approved. So sometime in May when I get the 2005-2006 department money I will submit to the board of education locations that I wish to purchase the radios from and the amount of money I will be using. This is just research purposes so I don't have to do it later in the year and rush through everything. We do have district radios shop, however they don't have what I'm looking for, so I will hopefully get approval to purchase from other locations. So when I'm saying buying I don't mean buying as of this instant but rather later on. Anyways, still looking for an answer on the MC2000 issue.

contrak10 · Post by **contrak10** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:30 pm

Ok tell me what you think about this idea, or if it is even possible. We have now two bases located in the building, one is in the main office and he other in a secretaries office. What I want to do is get rid of those base stations and place MC2000 deskset controllers. I want MC2000 in three locations, Main Office, Guidance and Administration office. The MC2000's would all be connected to one parallel box, which that would be connected to a MAXTRAC mobile/base. Would it be more cost effective to go with three bases or three deskset's? Can the MC2000 communicate to all 4 channels even though there is only one base or will I have to use PL tones on the same frequency to be able to communicate on all 4? All the offices are within 100 feet of each other. I have decided to go with both Motorola and Kenwood on the portables. I'm buying 4 HT1250 full keypads for the Administrators and CP200's for other staff. Custodians and emergency radios will all be Kenwood. I'm trying to make the entire fleet MDC1200 compatible. How much do you think the MC2000 system will run?

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:59 pm

What you may want to try and do a new post either in this forum or in the systems forums. Make the subject title something having to do with this topic and it should work out much better for you.

One thing I can see that you may want rethink, is your mixing of radios. I don't really see a reason why you would want half your radio fleet to be Kenwood and half Motorola. If you are wanting to have the whole fleet running MDC-1200 then I would think the Motorola CP200 is the radio for you. Also with the system that your working out, the HT1250 won't do a whole lot, if anything more for you. I don't think they will decode the MDC-1200 and I know the MAXTRAC won't.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:27 pm

Ok I guess the MC2000 would be encoding and decoding the MDC-1200. I'm not sure on how it would work to set up four MC2000 that each work on four channels. Hopefully someone can help you out.

MOTOROLA VS. OTHERS; BUYING HELP!

MOTOROLA VS. OTHERS; BUYING HELP!

Radio options

what..

Re: what..