XTS5000 Question

mr uhf · Post by **mr uhf** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:42 pm

I heard a report that the XTS5000 can be field programmed from the keypad. Is this true. I in addition heard that the APCO25 standard recommended field programmability. Is the above true or a radio urban legend?

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:17 pm

I don't know about an XTS5000 but as far as face programmable P25 radios goes, BK makes the DPH as r0f mentioned.

Also, E.F. Johnson made the 501X Stealth and also have some newer models out that can be programmed with a keypad programming functon on one of the buttons. From what I've seen in the stealth you can't make a channel digital from the keypad but once it's assigned a digital status in the software you can edit the frequencies and nac codes from the keypad.

I use a scratch pad zone with 1/2 analog and 1/2 digital.

mancow

jnglmassiv · Post by **jnglmassiv** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:17 pm

This was from a while ago but here it is:
http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.p ... ad+xts5000

RocketNJ wrote:The XTS5000 option Q52 is FPP, or front panel programming.

I know some government customers have it available to them. I do not know if it is available to the general public.

It does NOT use a programming battery or key like the HT1550 or JT1000 but rather the proper flashcode and newer version CPS.

Maybe those who are able could look into this a bit more?

Mike m in that thread had posted that he had one and went on to say what could be programmed from the keypad but he seems to have edited most/all of his info (?).

Even if it exists, you'll not have luck getting one.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:19 pm

That's why I would go with the Johnson unless you need MDC. It's too bad they don't support it. They do everything else though like, smartzone, etc....

mancow

tom IL · Post by **tom IL** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:06 pm

I believe it was listed as fpp in a USFS or BLM fire radio list. I think we decided that it was not available to the general public this way. I think they had to make them that way to meet the bid specifications.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:57 am

Or to meet type acceptance requirements. For a radio to be type accepted for Part 90 use, it may not have the capacity to change transmit freqs from the front panel.

Chrisjz · Post by **Chrisjz** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:47 am

M/A-COM has a portable radio (Jaguar 7100iP) and a mobile (M7100) that are field progammable for not only frequency but also P-25. I have a Jag 7100iP as my EDACS maintenance portable and I can change the P-25 individual ID, group ID, digital mode (C4FM or CQPSK) and several other useful things in the conventional mode. I have it set to talk to my friend's XTS-3000 in P-25 digital. People I show it to are still amazed that they both work together in the P-25 mode!

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:59 am

RKG wrote:Or to meet type acceptance requirements. For a radio to be type accepted for Part 90 use, it may not have the capacity to change transmit freqs from the front panel.

I've heard this type certification thing over and over but they must have found a way around it somehow. They're selling these things all day long with no issue at all. Look at BK (King) they've been doing it for decades.
Maybe Johnson gets by this because the radio must be enabled for FPP programming in the software by cheking a box?

Too bad Motorola doesn't get with the program. Everything should be FPP programmable.

mancow

JohnG · Post by **JohnG** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:32 pm

mancow wrote:Too bad Motorola doesn't get with the program. Everything should be FPP programmable.
mancow

The vast majority of public safety radio users aren't like the folks on this message board. For some public safety radio users, anything beyond volume, PTT and channel select is too complicated. I had one public safety system manager tell me, "just give me one big f****ng PTT button." While I wouldn't agree with him 100%, he made his point. There is something to be said for "keep it simple." To the cop on the street a radio is just another tool like a flashlight, handcuffs or weapon. It needs to be reliable, effective and easy to use.

While there are certain applications and user groups where FPP is very much needed, this is for the most part a very specialized requirement with limited appeal. It is not surprising that Motorola chooses to offer this feature only on certain limited models.

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:01 pm

Well... I mean that the capability should be there is some fashion. Like with BK you have to short the side pins or with the Johnson's you have to have the feature enabled with the software first. I agree that most don't, wouldn't need the the feature but it sure saves money on programming. We run all BK here and maybe 2 or 3 people know how to program them or even care to know.

I dream of a FPP capable astro saber. That stealth is the closest thing I've ever used. Too bad it's so damn big.

mancow

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:25 pm

The BK was type accepted because BK told the FCC that it was not front panel programmable without a "key" attached. Likewise the JT1000. And the ICOM H-16/U-16 were based on the notion that in order to invoke front panel programming, you had to take the radio apart and throw a switch (or move a jumper). All of these were based on a reg that said something about "not readily programmable."

The FCC has since changed that reg, and now any radio that is front panel programmable other than for FCC use has to be not useable for Tx or Rx while front panel programmable. (There are a couple of exceptions, such as aircraft radios.) See generally 47 C.F.R. sec. 203(e), (f) and (g), and, in particular, sec. 203(g)(1): "[Front panel programmability is OK if design] Is such that transmitters with external controls normally available to the operator must be internally modified to place the equipment in the programmable mode. Further, while in the programmable mode, the equipment shall not be capable of transmitting."

mancow · Post by **mancow** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:31 pm

How is Johnson still getting by with it then?
Or, were even the new portables accepted just under the wire in regard to the reg. ?

mancow

RocketNJ · Post by **RocketNJ** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:55 pm

The XTS5000 is field programmable with option Q52.

The option makes the radio a 240 mode conventional radio (15 zones/16 chans each). It is not compatible with trunking and currently only supported in VHF (although rumors to be available in UHF in upcoming firmware).

You can program the following from the front of the radio:
tx freq
rx freq
tx PL
rx PL
tx DPL
rx DPL
tx NAC
rx NAC
rx mode (analog/mixed/Astro)
tx mode (analog/Astro)
Zone name
Channel name

All other programmable parameters require the CPS and ribless programming cable.

George

515 · Post by **515** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:33 am

I got to test a pre-release VHF XTS5000 with FPP enabled several months ago.

No "key" was required to go into FPP mode. All P25 EFJ equipment, the Thales/Racal 25, and Datron Guardian do not require a key either. The BK DPH (Digital BK) still requires the same key the old ones did. The XTS5000 and EFJ equipment does require FPP be electronically enabled at the factory.

I found the XTS5000 I got to test was very easy to front panel program. You could choose analog/digital and wide/narrowband on a per-channel basis, in addition to all the regular freq., PL, NAC, etc. The only thing it wouldn't allow you to do is enter a P25 conventional talkgroup directly--it had to be chosen from the CPS programmed list. I'm not sure if Motorola ever changed this, but they should!

And I can confirm that FPP is currently only available in VHF. FPP in UHF is supposed to be coming later, along with hot-keypad DTMF, properly functioning P25 unit call, and so on...

RocketNJ · Post by **RocketNJ** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:08 am

Thanks 515. I forgot to mention 25 kHz/12.5 kHz selection from the keypad.

George

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:13 am

Yes it can programmed from the front without a special battery and without a special programming key. It is a non type accepted radio available for federal users only.

It is called FPP as mentioned above for front panel programmability. You only get 240 channels in 15 zones of 16 channels as mentioned above. You are able to change TX,RX freq's, TX,RX tones, dcs and CTCSS, you can change between digital, analog or mixed modes and network access codes for P25 and you can change alphanumerics for each channel again as mentioned above.

Again it can only be sold to federal users or dealers who sell to feds and nobody else since it is non-type accepted. If you were to call Moto as a individual about it I doubt they'd even talk to you any further.

They do have UHF and 800 available but no FPP in any trunking radio, only conventional.
Aside from the problems with hot DTMF it is still a nice radio, best dynamic range and Adjacent channel rejection in all bandwidths that I've seen in an HTyet.

Mike

astrousa · Post by **astrousa** » Wed May 26, 2004 9:16 pm

Does anyone have a valid flash code for the field program option in an XTS5000? Can only a govt mot dealer order this flash or is it open to anyone?

RocketNJ · Post by **RocketNJ** » Thu May 27, 2004 1:35 am

I've only seen alphabet agencies with the Q52 option so far. The second digit of the Flashcode has to have the "2" bit turned on.

For example the following codes would work:

x2xxxx-xxxxxx-x
x3xxxx-xxxxxx-x
x6xxxx-xxxxxx-x
x7xxxx-xxxxxx-x

etc.

As you can see they add the 1, 2, 4, and 8 bits together for each digit of the Flash code.

George

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Thu May 27, 2004 7:00 am

1A0001-000100-5 is a valid FPP Flash Code. There is also an ESN number that comes up if you do the 5 lower key press of the radios side button after power up, but it does not show up in the CPS radio information window.

Mike

astrousa · Post by **astrousa** » Thu May 27, 2004 8:54 am

Thanks for the flash. Is the ESN for modat or the MDT function? If I remember right the ESN is issued by Motorola & is a randon #.

Mike do you have an FPP flash with more options turned on, although that flash is a great start!

mike m · Post by **mike m** » Thu May 27, 2004 9:38 am

I don't know, But it doesn't have MODAT and it does OTAR so it's probably for MDC with OTAR.

RocketNJ · Post by **RocketNJ** » Thu May 27, 2004 7:28 pm

The ESN is similar to a MAC address on nic cards or ESNs on cell phones. Theorhetically it cannot be duplicated. I heard it may be implemented in future systems to keep people from cloning radios onto a system. The radio would need a valid ID plus have it's ESN associated with that ID.

George

007 · Post by **007** » Thu May 27, 2004 9:24 pm

Thanks for posting your info guys...good to see it from those in the know!

ASTRO_25 · Post by **ASTRO_25** » Sun May 30, 2004 3:24 pm

Can we do some further decodes of these new flashcode bits so that I can incorporate into the Flashcode decoder?