Anyone know about this /\/\ 5.4gHz point-to-point system?

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:08 pm

I was talking with the police chief the at our installation dinner the other day about various townwide radio issues. We started talking about how nice point-to-point microwave would be instead of dealing with SBC and their leased lines (hell would be a nice way of describing it). Of couse that immidiately changed to which bank we could rob to afford it. Anway...

He said that Mother M has come out with this new 5.4gHz system that uses some kind of small panel antenna and has a range of about 8 miles. From what he heard about it, it was supposed to have a large enough capacity for anything we would ever need out of it between all of our department's and was significantly cheaper than a conventional type microwave system.

I can't seem to find anything about this on the /\/\ website. Does anyone know anything about this??

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:20 pm

Probably Motorolas "Canopy" system. I have heard not so good things about it. I think it is easier and cheaper to go with another system that operates on licensed freq's anyway as the Canopy system useses the microwave equivalent of FRS. FatBoy

BrienD · Post by **BrienD** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:06 pm

I think the canopy system is a wide area wireless internet system. I got some info from Tessco a wile back on it.

motisking · Post by **motisking** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:09 pm

Canopy can do many things including video and yes wireless internet access.
It currently uses these protocols...
IPV4, UDP, TCP, ICMP, Telnet, HTTP, FTP, SNMP

http://motorola.canopywireless.com/

mx2000 · Post by **mx2000** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:23 pm

And it's secure (DES inbuilt), saw a demonstration earlier this month 2.4 & 5.8 Ghz.
It certainly had uses!!

Tony Soprano · Post by **Tony Soprano** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:35 am

A significant and growing part of our business is Canopy, if this is what you are describing, I recommend it. It works very, very well with voice and data, and is infinitely more economical than leased lines.

SlimBob · Post by **SlimBob** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:54 am

All it takes is one retard on 2.4/5.8 GHz running too much power and on your channel to take you out.

And some of those retards... they think they know radio too.

CTAMontrose · Post by **CTAMontrose** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:39 am

please tell me they are not using Part 15 freqs for this... get a cordless phone or a wifi too close, and blammo.....

DJP126 · Post by **DJP126** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:14 am

http://motorola.canopywireless.com/

Susan157 · Post by **Susan157** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:42 am

In the great white north
(Canada I mean) the 2.4 ghz
equipment does not need a lic.

The 5.4 mhz will need a (FCC)
Industry canada lic.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:14 pm

Maybe this is what he is thinking of. I'm not sure. All I see this being used for on the website is wireless internet. We are trying to setup a point-to-point system for voice and data from one tower to another. This will do that?

The area this would be used is very rural. In fact, I would venture a guess that we would be the only ones on 5.4gHz for miles if it matters.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:20 pm

I don't know much about Canopy per se, but consider (i) at those frequencies, you are going to need clean line of sight between the antennas, (ii) at those frequencies, you run the risk of some precipitation fade when it rains or snows, and (iii) since this appears to be broadband, to extract voice-grade circuits from it you are going to have to invest in equipment to mux and demux the voice.

Based on past experience, we would consider even full-blown Harris-based microwave (on licensed freqs) to be secondary in performance and reliability to well-maintained FDDA-specificed telco lines. Canopy appears to be far less robust than the Harris-based microwave.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:44 pm

nmfire10 wrote:Maybe this is what he is thinking of. I'm not sure. All I see this being used for on the website is wireless internet. We are trying to setup a point-to-point system for voice and data from one tower to another. This will do that?

The area this would be used is very rural. In fact, I would venture a guess that we would be the only ones on 5.4gHz for miles if it matters.

I think the Canopy backhaul system can be used for what you are talking about. No sure if this is a good idea.

Jim202 · Post by **Jim202** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:59 pm

[quote="Cam22"][quote="nmfire10"]Maybe this is what he is thinking of. I'm not sure. All I see this being used for on the website is wireless internet. We are trying to setup a point-to-point system for voice and data from one tower to another. This will do that?

The area this would be used is very rural. In fact, I would venture a guess that we would be the only ones on 5.4gHz for miles if it matters.[/quote]

You might want to do a search for "spread spectrum microwave radios" and look at that equipment. Many of the vendors have a good desciption of the radios and how they work.

Just remember at 2 Ghz., you can use 7/8 coax for the feed line. At the 5 Ghz., you need to use waveguide to keep the loss down. Rain and snow effect the higher band and you will need to have a line of sight like someone already said.

Antenna size depends on distance and which frequency band your in. The 2 Ghz. can use a grid type dish, but the 5 need a solid dish. Don't forget tower loading if you can't use a roof top. The 5 Ghz. dish needs a strong mount to keep the wind from moving the dish.

Jim

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:10 pm

RKG wrote:.....well-maintained FDDA-specificed telco lines.

Let me assure you, around here, there is NO SUCH THING. SBC around here gets their kicks by screwing around with our lines for no reason and when something breaks (often), it takes a week or more to get it fixed properly by 3 different levels of technicians who pass the buck. It is a total nightmare. I would almost rather use yagis and UHF links with continious duty transmitters for status tone rather than these phone lines.

MO_TRASHER · Post by **MO_TRASHER** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:32 am

Jim202 wrote:
Just remember at 2 Ghz., you can use 7/8 coax for the feed line. At the 5 Ghz., you need to use waveguide to keep the loss down. Rain and snow effect the higher band and you will need to have a line of sight like someone already said.

Antenna size depends on distance and which frequency band your in. The 2 Ghz. can use a grid type dish, but the 5 need a solid dish. Don't forget tower loading if you can't use a roof top. The 5 Ghz. dish needs a strong mount to keep the wind from moving the dish.

Jim

Jim202, the canopy system antenna/transceiver unit is self contained and does not require an rf feedline. A cat 5 wire connects the antenna to the computer system.
The unit is very small; approx 3" X 7" Very small cross section.

propryaterry · Post by **propryaterry** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:57 am

Nasa used it as a WAN link for the columbia disaster.
http://www.connectwithcanopy.com/index. ... ory&aid=77
I guess this means it works.

I have worked with the Canopy demo equipment and was very impressed with it. With two backhauls using the reflectors you can pull off a 30 mile hop.

The Units are set up so only one transmitter is running at once cutting back on transmitters from interfering with each other and providing less of a demand on your infrastructure if you were to set up a more complex network with multiple sites linked to one backbone network connection.

The new backhaul units I think can do 20Mbps and operate on 5.2 and 5.7 ghz.

Let me know if you have any questions I will see if I can help you.
I havn't played with it much lately so changes happen but the company I work for is a Canopy autorized dealer.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:35 am

propryaterry wrote:Nasa used it as a WAN link for the columbia disaster.
http://www.connectwithcanopy.com/index. ... ory&aid=77

DO NOT CLICK THAT LINK!!! It opened this cascade of new windows that will keep going into oblivion until the compter codes.

propryaterry · Post by **propryaterry** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:50 am

b]DO NOT CLICK THAT LINK!!! It opened this cascade of new windows that will keep going into oblivion until the compter codes.

Ok, it looks like you got a problem with your browser I only have one window opening up off that link.

EKS · Post by **EKS** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:00 pm

nmfire10 wrote:
RKG wrote:.....well-maintained FDDA-specificed telco lines.
Let me assure you, around here, there is NO SUCH THING. SBC around here gets their kicks by screwing around with our lines for no reason and when something breaks (often), it takes a week or more to get it fixed properly by 3 different levels of technicians who pass the buck. It is a total nightmare. I would almost rather use yagis and UHF links with continious duty transmitters for status tone rather than these phone lines.

Tell me about it. Last weekend one of their people got the bright idea to leave a box open and the rain pretty much destroyed everything in it. They claimed to have fixed it the next day when they replaced the cards that got blown up, but they left all the wet wiring in place. Yeah they milked that job for 2 more days.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:23 pm

It took these fools here 7 days to move a circuit from one cross-box to another. These cross-boxes were close enough to see one from the other standing on the ground. THE GOD DAMN CO (SWITCH BUILDING) WHERE EVERYTHING TERMINATED WAS ACROSS THE FREAKIN' STREET!!!!!!

I could have tunneled under the road with a piece of CAT5, jack-hammered through the concrete wall of the CO, traced the wires knowing nothing about the CO at all, and wired my own lines into the system in the amount of time it took these numb skulls to get it working. I wanted to murder these people after that.

My favorite is when they are in the CO, they put a butset on one of our RTPA circuits and don't hear anything (duh, no one is talking). They then just randomly assume since there is no sound, it must not be used for anything and pull the jumpers on it to disconnect the circuit. WTF??

Cowthief · Post by **Cowthief** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:42 pm

Hello.

I have had nothing but trouble with SBC and the dry pairs that are provided..
I have used microwave links, including canopy and MMDS.
We use a combo' of UHF links and microwave, and it works much better.
SBC has a deal with the city to provide 10% of conduit capacity or 8% pair capacity, at cost, and we do not use it for anything but fire call boxes and traffic control.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Sat May 01, 2004 9:22 am

We in the Boston area have not had these sorts of problems with FDDA lines. Note that if a telco guy puts a buttset on a pair used to bring back a satellite receiver while no field units are transmitting, he should not hear nothing; he should hear the SpectraTac idle tone.

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 01, 2004 11:37 am

Yes, but this happens on pairs that do not have status tone (idle tone, pilot tone, whatever). The transmit pairs do not have status tones for example.

MassFD · Post by **MassFD** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:06 pm

Happens to us all the time, sometimes if it is a 2 wire circuit (tx and rx on same pair) we get advance warning when the Verizon idiot puts his toner on the line first,

DEE DOOO DEE DOOO DEE DOOO for about 10 minutes then the dispatcher will ask "hey why is the radio dead?"

I have a pair right now that I have a test tone (mine) at the HQ end and someones POTS dial tone on the other end. Idoits testing from the CO find nothing wrong with the line. But we will dispatch a tech and if the problem is in your equipment there will be a charge. What BS I have never seen a tone remote base station that had dial tone on the control line and they say the circuit tests ok.

The only thing I can count on working every time is the Backup Transmitters located at the Dispatch location. Not in the center of the coverage area so it does not sound as good but at least it works

spareparts · Post by **spareparts** » Sat May 01, 2004 5:03 pm

MassFD wrote:I have a pair right now that I have a test tone (mine) at the HQ end and someones POTS dial tone on the other end. Idoits testing from the CO find nothing wrong with the line. But we will dispatch a tech and if the problem is in your equipment there will be a charge. What BS I have never seen a tone remote base station that had dial tone on the control line and they say the circuit tests ok.

Depending if the CO is a DMS-100 or a 5ESS, try this: from the end with dialtone, drop a buttset on it, and dial 958. The CO usually will read back the local number for the line. Call repair and tell the person who answers that you have a life safety issue and need to speak to the supervisor. Let them know the number & you have a problem.

Document it.

Martin

MassFD · Post by **MassFD** » Sat May 01, 2004 5:22 pm

Have already done the 958 and given them the number. Problem with Verizon is there call center is nowhere close to our location and may not even be in the same state.

We keep a spare pair from the dispatch point to the transmitter site for just this kind of thing, that's how often it happens. I will escalate the call on monday and they will eventuly fix it. It's a shame that Verizon is so bad that we pay for a spare pair to maintain a working system.

They are now working on a big project runing fiber to the home, cable trucks everywhere. They just sent me a letter that we need to place proper identification on our private cable that is on their poles.

If they cannot identify who belongs to the cable they will remove it (at the owners expense) it's funny because both ends are within 2 blocks and plainy enter our buildings. Hope they can figure out who owns it so they can bill us for the removal.

The reason for private cable and the pole lease is when asked to provide the circuits the then "Bell Atlantic" now verizon wanted to pass them thru the CO for a total circuit length of 12 miles, to go 2 blocks I dont think so.

Sorry for the rant but Verizon is so bad it just gets me going

nmfire10 · Post by **nmfire10** » Sat May 01, 2004 6:27 pm

The circuits downtown for the other dept and their radio are full of water. They have been full of water for a very long time. They refused to admit and fix it. So they kept trying every other concievable fix and hack to make it work. This went on for almost a year. Finally, they gave up and ran a whole new line from the building to the CO which about 2 blocks away.

spareparts · Post by **spareparts** » Sun May 02, 2004 7:18 am

MassFD wrote:Have already done the 958 and given them the number. Problem with Verizon is there call center is nowhere close to our location and may not even be in the same state.

They are now working on a big project runing fiber to the home, cable trucks everywhere. They just sent me a letter that we need to place proper identification on our private cable that is on their poles.

If they cannot identify who belongs to the cable they will remove it (at the owners expense) it's funny because both ends are within 2 blocks and plainy enter our buildings. Hope they can figure out who owns it so they can bill us for the removal.

The reason for private cable and the pole lease is when asked to provide the circuits the then "Bell Atlantic" now verizon wanted to pass them thru the CO for a total circuit length of 12 miles, to go 2 blocks I dont think so.

Sorry for the rant but Verizon is so bad it just gets me going

Do you know the CLLI code for the serving CO? I *might* be able to help. Would look something like this NYCQNYFL

Not having too much to do with outside plant, How do you ID the cable? Are we talking engraved plates ty-wrapped to the carier wire at every pole?

Martin

MassFD · Post by **MassFD** » Sun May 02, 2004 6:13 pm

Do you know the CLLI code for the serving CO? I *might* be able to help. Would look something like this NYCQNYFL

Not having too much to do with outside plant, How do you ID the cable? Are we talking engraved plates ty-wrapped to the carier wire at every pole?

No I do not know the CLLI code but I am sure that I can get it fixed this week. All of the problems have been within a few blocks of the transmitter location. They are so short on cable pairs that they reguarly "steal" any pair that is quiet when they butt set it.

As far as the cable ID it looks like the engraved plates are the way to go at this time. But get this since I lease 13 poles I only need to ID every 4 poles so what do I need 3 markers.

KG6EAQ · Post by **KG6EAQ** » Sun May 02, 2004 8:54 pm

PM me the phone number and I'll give you the CLLI.

MassFD · Post by **MassFD** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:22 am

Thanks for the offers on the lease line problem

I called repair today and spoke with someone that was helpfull, even called me back because she had not given me a ticket #

15 Min later "Testing" called me and agrees there is a problem.

1 Hour later a very well informed tech arrived, did some testing and found that my cable pair to "Point 2" (transmitter location) had been assigned to a POTS circuit and was no longer connected to the equipment that services my line in the CO. Funny thing is it was still connected to my radio equipment and every time the receiver was active it was being put on this persons phone line. Either they do not use their phone much or do not mind hearing strange voices.

Well anyway I have a new pair to the CO and all they need to do is wire the CO to bridge point 1 and 2 together and I will be back in business.

The Tech also gave me a direct Phone number to bypass the call center for the next time I need Special Circuit repair.

My faith is almost restored, when the CO completes their work and it works again I'l be happy

Post by **alex** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:43 am

Just curious: What does it cost to lease some pole space?

-Alex

Anyone know about this /\/\ 5.4gHz point-to-point system?

Anyone know about this /\/\ 5.4gHz point-to-point system?

Porbably Motorolas' "Canopy" system

In the great white north (Canada I mean)"Susan157"

SBC