[snicker] Private "channels"... or so some idiots

[k4wtf]

Every once in a while I'll switch to my "GMRS" zone on the Spectra while I'm driving somewhere and simply scan for "interesting" activity. The activity ranges from some mom telling her kids it's time to come home to kids playing "army" to construction crews (a no-no on GMRS BTW).

Well, the other day, I was out and about doing the usual "scan" thing when I happened on what sounded like a construction crew. They were quite a bit of fun to play with.

Someone on their crew was obviously slacking off because they were looking for him on the radio, "Hey, where are you?" Well, I couldn't resist. I keyed the mic and replied, "I'm right here, where are you?" Oh my... You would have thought that I had violated National Security or something. They promptly informed me that I was on a "secure channel" and that if I didn't "F'n leave immediately, they'd sick the GD FCC on my A..."

This was just too good of an invitation for me to pass up. For several hours I harrassed them by calling a friend of mine on their "secure channel." I properly identified with my GMRS callsign each and every time, only to be met with a string of profanities from our "construction worker" friends.

It is amazing that people buy these "bubble-wrap" radios at Wal-Mart and think that for whatever reason:

(1) They own a particular frequency.
(2) Their communications are secure.
(3) They don't need a license to operate on GMRS frequencies and even if they acknowledge that they need a license, they think that a business can obtain a GMRS license that gives blanket authorization to all employees.
(4) They think that it is "acceptable" to demonstrate their lack of any real vocabulary by throwing in colorful adjectives, verbs and adverbs every couple of words.

So, am I the only one who gets a kick out of running their blood pressure up so high that they're at risk of stroking out?

--
John

[Cam]

Will of it was a construction crew and they were saying all that, then most likey they were not using bubble pack radios. I betting some radio dealer sold them the radios and told them a lot of that crap. It's a common problem.

Cam

[k4wtf]

Any "dealer" who sells radios with "roger beep" capability should be shot. That's why I'm figuring it was "bubble pack" radios.

--
John

[Cam]

oh

[nmfire10]

What are you talking about. When I turn on one of my several hundred PL codes, it will encrypt everything I say so no one else will hear me!! Duh, it is printed right on the package, silly.

[k4wtf]

What are you talking about. When I turn on one of my several hundred PL codes, it will encrypt everything I say so no one else will hear me!! Duh, it is printed right on the package, silly.

I'm waiting for someone on MURS to pull the "this is a secure channel" stunt. I'll respond, "no... But this is [unkey, reach up and hit the securenet button, rekey]..."

It doesn't terribly bother me that these folks are using bubble-pak radios but, they need to know that they can't operate on the GMRS freqs and have to stay in FRS and that even then, they shouldn't be using the language they are using. I'll bet these same bozos would blow a seal if their kids FRS radio started spewing that crap...

--
John

[Tom in D.C.]

John:

"Bozo" is a great word for them. Sort of says it all.

Regards,

[CAPTLPOL]

I was out of my area and out of the state in MS not too long ago using MURS. I was making a legitimate conversation with my cousin in another vehicle when we decided that we were hungry and decided to stop at Micky D's. I arrived in the parking lot prior to him and proceeded to continue the conversation on MURS. Well low and behold the PL we were using was the same as the output to the drive-thru speaker. Keep in mind when I first arrived their was no one in the drive-thru and I had no intentions of malicious interference. Midway through our conversation someone came through the drive-thru interfering with my ongoing conversation and of course when they were done talking the car in the drive-thru could obliviously here my conversation. The manager told me that I was talking to him on a restricted channel and that I was interfering with his business. I could not resist the temptation and then promptly told him that he was violating the law by interfering with my ongoing transmission. He did not like that too much got out of the store and approached my vehicle and told me to get off of his radio frequency. I showed him a copy of the Part 95 rules which he said did not apply to him at which time he informed me that he was going to call the police if I did not get off the radio. I advised him to do just that. Well low and behold Tupelo PD showed up and approached my vehicle. I advised them of what I was doing showed them my credentials, and the copy of the FCC Part 95 rules. The officer looked at me in a perplexed look and just told the manager that their was nothing he could do.

[007]

I'm waiting for someone on MURS to pull the "this is a secure channel" stunt. I'll respond, "no... But this is [unkey, reach up and hit the securenet button, rekey]..."

--
John

I did that the other day! I was talking 151.820 with a ham buddy (we were passing some non-ham traffic, so we opted for a non-ham channel), and we were yakking back and forth when this schlep with a potty mouth said that this was "his channel" and we "had to move or else". I prompty said "Uh-huh" then he said "this was a private channel" and that we interrupted his "private conversation"....of which there wasn't one.

To that I said "No, now it's a private conversation" unkeyed and hit the secure button....we continued our conversation encrypted. We only have DVP in our Spectras, but it beats what he had - nothing

[k4wtf]

You've got to love securenet radios!

Question for those of you who know much more than I do about these things (securenet radios), and that includes the vast majority of you...

Is it possible to set the radio up so that when you go into secure mode, it will only unmute on a VALID-KEY secure carrier? I've noted that it doesn't unmute on an invalid key but, "clear" transmissions make it through just fine.

Oh... McDonalds are just so fun to play with, aren't they? Did the manager realize that you could go 1/4mi down the road, "off his property" and still manage to make it into his system without even trying? They're such brain-children, aren't they?

--
John

--
John

[911radio]

We have a Long John Slivers operating their drive through on MURS near where I live and some nights they will carry on conversations and cut up with you if you are passing through talking on the same freq. Big difference from the McDonalds pin heads you guys are mentioning.

[mancow]

K4WTF.......

The sabers I know have a "proper key detect". I believe this is what you are referring to. I'm sure others do as well.


mancow

[k4wtf]

I'll have to experiment with them and see if I can get them to ignore "clear" signals when the securenet is selected. That is the ultimate goal.

--
John

[007]

I believe the anwser is "yes"...I don't have the ability to look right now, but I will later.

Mine are set up to accept clear transmissions, but now that I think about it you make a good point...

[2wayfreq]

I hate it when the little bubble packers start coming through our .550 repeater and keep hitting the call button every second. Its too bad that FRS and GMRS had to be put so close together. Joel WPUJ327

[RapidCharger]

So CAP,

How did that big mac taste with all that yummy spit in it?

I wish the fast food restaurants would not use murs frequencies. If you're using those with someone who's new to radio with you and you hear orders being taken on your $2000 radio they ask, wow how do you get that on your C.B.?

And some of them have dozens of non murs frequencies at their disposal to use.

[w7com]

007 Said:

I did that the other day! I was talking 151.820 with a ham buddy (we were passing some non-ham traffic, so we opted for a non-ham channel), and we were yakking back and forth when this schlep with a potty mouth said that this was "his channel" and we "had to move or else". I prompty said "Uh-huh" then he said "this was a private channel" and that we interrupted his "private conversation"....of which there wasn't one.

To that I said "No, now it's a private conversation" unkeyed and hit the secure button....we continued our conversation encrypted. We only have DVP in our Spectras, but it beats what he had - nothing

How did you get DVP to work in a 11.25KHz channel and how did you get your Spectra to operate at 2 watts?

[ExKa|iBuR]

The same way you get a Spectra to transmit with 500mW, 2.5kHz deviation all with no external antenna on FRS

[007]

How did you get DVP to work in a 11.25KHz channel and how did you get your Spectra to operate at 2 watts?

I can claim ignorance about the bandwith limitations...this I did not know. I knew of the power limits but not of the bandwith requirement. Consider it learned. However, for 2 TX sessions of very little time, I'm not going to sweat it....see closing remarks below.

No, it wasn't 2 watts, it was 5-6ish watts, which is what the low power setting is, as programmed for the "talkaround" channels. To point that out as an operational boo-boo is correct - but for a channel I've used twice, I think I'm doing pretty good since I'm not using 50w or 100w (or more by some) and gain mobile antennas or 3-9 db base antennas like some of the local radio geeks do. There are people who think it's cool to mod their ham stuff to TX out of band, or buy commercial stuff and run it wide open on the "unlicensed" channels.

I only put 151.820 in the radio in the first place to listen and help foxhunt a few of the mopes who were running gobs of power and creating interference for portable/low power stations...I wouldn't consider 6w to be an egregious violation, esp. given the unity gain antenna it was used on.

If you want to make a federal case out of a grand total of less than 5 minutes air time over the course of 2 years, that's your business....but it's time spent barking up the wrong tree. I'm glad to see you are concerned, but this is not a large scale violation...I can't speak for other MURS users, but I know I'm not the only one who has violated the power rule....

Yikes, I didn't know a few minute long DVP conversation would generate this....but I can understand you asking, so I felt compelled to anwser.

[mastr]

This is hilarious. The "I only used illegal freqs/scrambling and power to catch someone else who was using more illegal power" is the best laugh I have had in a while.

[wavetar]

I'll have to experiment with them and see if I can get them to ignore "clear" signals when the securenet is selected. That is the ultimate goal.

--
John

I don't think that'll happen. SecureNet was designed with public safety use in mind. So, in case an officer accidentally hits his encryption button, the other officers will hear him regardless of whether he's clear or encrypted.

Todd

[k4wtf]

OK. Is it possible to make them require the appropriate PL/DLP to unmute on a "clear" transmission while in Secure mode? That would achieve the same desired effect. It might already do this. I haven't really played too much with it lately.

--
John

[larryepage]

It may be helpful to remember that the 'color dot' frequencies which were assigned to MURS are also used by other services. In fact, they have been used on a licensed basis to support restaurant drive-up ordering for a number of years.

If the restaurants using the frequencies are properly licensed, their operation is primary to MURS communication, and as such, would be protected from interference from MURS users.

Regards,

[w7com]

007: I didn't intend to make a federal case out of it. It just seemed from the tone of some of the posts, here and in other topics, that some don't understand the legal limits of the MURS class. What you did isn't going to harm anyone but is about the same as running 12w on a 27MHz CB with too much modulation. You can pop over to QRZ.com and see what some hams think about that type of operation. The main point is that there is not much older equipment out there that is legal to run on the lower three channels due to the bandwidth limits. And as larrypage notes, there are still a lot of licensed stations on those channels and I doubt that most of them are even aware of the MURS rules.

For the current rules on MURS see: http://www.provide.net/~prsg/mursrule.htm

73

[apco25]

do what the local surv teams do and go pick some burried splinter freq in some oddball band location.....

[007]

This is hilarious. The "I only used illegal freqs/scrambling and power to catch someone else who was using more illegal power" is the best laugh I have had in a while.

Nice try...my 2 MURS conversations were completely unrelated and happened during different calander years. Your flawed logic is funny, but in the case unapplicable

I have the 4 or 5 (can't remember now) MURS freqs in the radio, and I have never heard business traffic around here on 151.820 or the next one up from it...just the 3 "Dot" channels. My original post was reference a mope who was being a jerk, not a business user.

Mute point now, but W7COM makes a good point...it seems that some think that our ham licences give us magical powers, like being able to legally open up ham gear. I am on the legal side of that fence

[w7com]

do what the local surv teams do and go pick some burried splinter freq in some oddball band location.....

There is a hole slew of nice wideband channels at 152MHz and 158MHz that are allocated but not used much anymore... think IMTS.

[wa2zdy]

Around here Joe, IMTS channels are used for paging.

I'm starting to get a little more interested in securenet radios. No particular reason though LOL. Just the way I am . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Fun topic. I remember a buddy of mine and a go-round at a driveup with HIS radio . ..

[CAPTLPOL]

The 11.25 bandwith requirements are for the 3 151.xxx channels and not 154.570 and 154.600. Now as for the 2 watts on a Spectra, that is a different story.

[mastr]

"Nice try...my 2 MURS conversations were completely unrelated and happened during different calander years. Your flawed logic is funny, but in the case unapplicable"

I'm not in a position to do anything about it anyway, and likely wouldn't do so if I could. If you can justify such operation in your own mind, I couldn't care less. As you mention, the world is filled with people who think that they are somehow exempt from various FCC rules/ regs.

Often the more knowledgable (sp?) one becomes the more likely they are to stretch the rules. Human nature is good for a laugh once in a while.

[Cam]

The 11.25 bandwith requirements are for the 3 151.xxx channels and not 154.570 and 154.600. Now as for the 2 watts on a Spectra, that is a different story.

Whats up with the 11.25 bandwith thing anyway? Why did they do that?

Cam

[CAPTLPOL]

A license on MURS frequncies does not given someone priority over the MURS frequncies. The only thing the license does provide for someone to use equipmtment which may have had exemptions to the rules for higher outputs and the such. License holders to not have priority over the MURS service. It is now a part 95 service.

[ASTROMODAT]

John, what you ask in terms of SECURENET is indeed possible. On the Spectras, your RSS should have an option under SECURENET settings called "Proper Code Detect." If you check this box, then for those selected Modes/Channels (or sytem wide, your choice), if you are in SECURENET mode, your audio will stay Muted, unless the Proper DVP/DES is sent. Of course, all Clear Transmissions will also come through and unmute your audio. This way, you can hear all clear transmisions, and you can hear encrypted transmissions for which you have a valid key loaded. If you have an invalid key, you will: 1) Not hear the transmission, and 2) you will not be annoyed with having to listen to noise (since your receiver's audio will remain squelched for encrypted transmissions whose key does not match your loaded key). Even the old Micor DVP/DES SECURENEYT radios had a "Proper Code Detect" option, which was a hardware option on the SECURENET board in the radio.

Larry

[Johnny Grep]

A license on MURS frequncies does not given someone priority over the MURS frequncies. The only thing the license does provide for someone to use equipmtment which may have had exemptions to the rules for higher outputs and the such. License holders to not have priority over the MURS service. It is now a part 95 service.

I've had a repeater on 462.5625MHz output for more than 10 years, which coincides with FRS CH1. Many times, I'm TXing 40W off of it and FRS kids in my vincinity tell me to 'get off their channel'. What's the law in the States when it comes to FRS priority? I'm in Canada, but my frequency and license has been 'grandfathered'...

It's sure fun to listen to Talkabout users using voice inversion, then I blow em off with 110W of Securenet or Aegis, depending on how I feel... and it's all legal!

[CAPTLPOL]

The FRS frequincies that are the same as the GMRS frequencies are shared. The specific licenses for user on the GMRS frequencies that were issued to business prior to the FCC restricted GMRS licenses for personal use are grandfathered. However, it is still a shared service and one cannot cause malicious interfiernce over the other.

[Robert HT220]

People here use GMRS channels all the time. Illegally. There's one group of people that use 462.725MHz almost every week. I finally found a set of TX/RX elements for my MT500 and I keyed up and asked for their callsign, they told me to $%(# off. It just so happens that I've got MODAT on that old MT, so I just hit the emergency button on the radio and let it run for about 5 min's and turned the radio off then back on, and some guy comes on and says "What the hell was that?!?!" The other dude says "How the !#$@ do I know?!?"

Robert

[2wayfreq]

Yeah
I agree Cam, you have to go and buy some short battery life,no power/audio "RadioShack Special" 11.25k MURS radios just to be on those 3 freqs? Ridiculous!! I would rather just put them in my MT1000 VHF and be done with it. Its not like i'm going to damage someones TV or open their garage door if I dont have the magical 11.25. How wierd.

[Susan157]

The Rules In The Great White North ( Canada I Mean)
Is Very Simple.

You Must Not Use More Than Two Watts.

The Radio Must Have Been Manufactured As A
Murs Radio Only.Just Like FRS Radios.
No Other Radio Is To Operate On These
Channels.

RIGHT TO THE POINT.

Thats Canada For You.

[Josh]

The Rules In The Great White North ( Canada I Mean)
Is Very Simple.

You Must Not Use More Than Two Watts.

The Radio Must Have Been Manufactured As A
Murs Radio Only.Just Like FRS Radios.
No Other Radio Is To Operate On These
Channels.

RIGHT TO THE POINT.

Thats Canada For You.

Since when does Canada have MURS?

-Josh

[Susan157]

We Have It Josh.

Glad To Help You .

[Josh]

We Have It Josh.

Glad To Help You .

Yeah, but was there a date involved?

MURS went into effect here, Nov 13, 2000 if I'm not mistaken on the year. The first set of rules changed a bit and are more flexible than Canada's. Here, at least, I can program my HT1250 for the MURS channels and be fine, but in Canada it's a no-no. However, I figure that like here, the Canadian FCC isn't out on patrol looking for illegal radios on license-by-rule frequencies probably already pirated up like they were here.

-Josh

[ExKa|iBuR]

We have MURS in Canada?!

What frequencies?

-Mike

[W4KRR]

The Rules In The Great White North ( Canada I Mean)
Is Very Simple.

You Must Not Use More Than Two Watts.

The Radio Must Have Been Manufactured As A
Murs Radio Only.Just Like FRS Radios.
No Other Radio Is To Operate On These
Channels.

RIGHT TO THE POINT.

With regard to MURS rules, if you hear a transmission on an MURS channel,

Can you tell what kind of radio was used to make the transmission?
Can you tell how much power was used?
Can you tell what the deviation and channel spacing was?

The point is, if you can't tell, and nobody else can tell, then, does it make any difference?

[Johnny Grep]

The Rules In The Great White North ( Canada I Mean)
Is Very Simple.

You Must Not Use More Than Two Watts.

The Radio Must Have Been Manufactured As A
Murs Radio Only.Just Like FRS Radios.
No Other Radio Is To Operate On These
Channels.

RIGHT TO THE POINT.

Thats Canada For You.

Since my license is grandfathered, I can blow 110W of Securenet off my repeater if I want... drives the town nuts, but hey, I gotta work with this pair. Imagine all those kids who can't use the Scan feature on their Talkabouts because they don't have specific channel lockout... lol

[chipjumper]

Just as illegal as not coming to a FULL COMPLETE STOP...How many people actually stop at a flashing left turn light even though there isn't any oncoming traffic? Obviously the G-men have bigger fish to fry...